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... You calculated 11 charging stops, versus 5 to 7 in my calculations. I guess it has to do with your maximum speed of 200 km/h...
I guess we maybe using different settings. With 115% reference speed and max 150km/h it still returns 10 stops and 16h36 total. Here's the link with this settings (you need to wait for it to calculate but after you can see the settings clicking on the clog):

A Better Routeplanner
 

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For those who are interested the average driving time and kilometers per stint, in my calculations based on a realistic 110% reference speed:
View attachment 1604

For many of us a top speed of 130 km/h will be most realistic. A little over 2 hour drive over 237 km's, followed by a 24 minute stop. Not far off from current ICE life.
In this scenario ABRP calculates the following charging sessions:

1. from 18 to 70%
2. from 5 to 67%
3. from 5 to 68%
4. from 5 to 80%
5. from 5 to 75%
6. from 5 to 59%

I set the maximum charging level to 100% in the app settings, so interesting to see that ABPR "knows better" and does not go past the 80% charging level.
These are much better results! Could you please share a link with one of your simulations to see what's different in the settings?
With 115% speed and 150max speed I get much more stops and much lower leg durations.

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
So far everything seems quite positive. Both the real life experiences of @DES_MX and the more theoretical approach lead to very promising results. As there is nothing better than real life testing, here are some findings of Auto Zeitung (a German car magazine) and the iX3. Less positive I can tell you. But it's good to look at both the positive and the negative. Quite a bit of reading but it's worth your while.

Source: Auto Zeitung

The long way south in the BMW iX3

Tire Wheel Car Land vehicle Sky


A vacation trip with the BMW iX3 - is it possible today without the clutter of charging cards? Answer: In principle, yes, but the devil is in the details - because charging takes a lot of time and, above all, nerves, as our electric car report on the 2200-kilometer journey shows.

Before we set off on vacation with the BMW iX3, let's take a look into the past: Do you remember how we used to travel as a family to Lake Garda? The Ford 12m P4 was packed with a mixture of tension and anticipation. 50 hp, manual transmission, no air conditioning, no seat belts. That's how it started. Mostly in the middle of the night, in order to eventually make it to the top of the sheet metal avalanche in order to use the coolness of the dark for at least a few hours. In the midday heat at the latest, however, we stuck together in the back like sardines. The cooler was boiling, a strong-smelling cloud of exhaust gas pulled into the window, and long queues formed at the gas stations. We arrived anyway - somehow, after 15, 16 hours. After a short, unconscious sleep, however, the hardships were forgotten. We became one with the landscape, the sand, the water.

Decades later we are on our way to Lake Garda again. Only this time it's not a vacation trip, but a test drive with a BMW iX3. How does it work with the electric car on long journeys? We want to cover a good 2000 kilometers - once in Italy and back - in three days. Quasi a journey in time lapse. Without much planning, we only booked a hotel at the first destination. The navigation system leads us to the charging stations. The first day's stage leads from Cologne via Stuttgart - there the photographer gets on -, via the A8 and A7, over the Fernpass and the Brenner to Rovereto in the Adige Valley northeast of Lake Garda. A total of around 900 kilometers - that should be possible with two quick charging stops. After all, the BMW iX3, with a range of 381 kilometers, has set the endurance record in AUTO ZEITUNG's current comparison of modern mid-range SUVs. Again we are filled with this mixture of tension and anticipation, yes, wanderlust. But what if we run out of juice somewhere? Refill fuel quickly from the reserve canister? It does not work. Tow away? At least it doesn't work on its own.

LONG DISTANCES POSSIBLE IN THE ELECTRIC BMW IX3?
But do we still have to think about such thoughts, ten years after the umpteenth "restart" of e-mobility, after all major German manufacturers committed to "electric only"? After all, according to chargemap, there were 24,588 charging stations with 84,665 charging connections in Germany at the end of July 2021. According to the Federal Network Agency, there were even around 45,000 stations. In Austria at the same point in time, according to chargemap, it was 5606 and 20,297, in Italy 7128 and 20,297 and in Switzerland 5325 and 19,166. So a total of at least 42,647 charging stations that we could - theoretically - use. Why then is BMW boss Oliver Zipse, who is also president of the European car manufacturers' association Acea, demanding their massive expansion? For every additional percentage point of the tightening of the CO2 target, at least 200,000 additional public charging points for electric vehicles are needed, he said in July 2021 - beyond the three million required in Europe in 2030. With around 225,000 charging stations in Europe, this would correspond to an increase by a factor of 27 in less than ten years. VDA President Hildegard Müller added: "There is currently no Europe-wide charging infrastructure, unfortunately the nationwide expansion is a long way off." One reason for the wake-up calls is obvious: in the course of twelve months, well over half a million vehicles with purely electric or plug-in hybrid drives have been registered in Germany alone - more than in all previous years combined. The total stock exceeded the million mark for the first time. E-vehicles have long since left their niche. Moving them over long distances is no longer a pioneering act. This is ultimately suggested by the advertising, which raves about ranges of up to 785 kilometers and charging stops of a few minutes. Tenor: The electric car on long journeys - no problem.

RELAXATION AND DRIVING FUN IN THE BMW IX3
Unfortunately, to anticipate the result of our trip, we cannot confirm that. Within three days, we charged ten times over a total distance of 2200 kilometers - every 220 kilometers on average. Six more times we could not find the charging stations displayed in the navigation system despite an intensive search (twice) or they were defective (twice) or their charging capacity was so low (twice) that we would have had to add a few more days of travel. Within 72 hours, we spent a total of around twelve hours charging, driving to or searching in vain for a charging station. That makes an average of four hours a day. With an economical diesel - with a real consumption of six liters per 100 kilometers and a 50-liter tank - we could have ticked off the necessary energy supply with two refueling stops within 15 minutes. This is not a "everything was better in the past" argument, but a fact against which e-mobility, if it is to be the new and only normal, must be measured. On the other hand, the BMW iX3 - and that is just one of the many pro aspects - was far more economical than any diesel would have been. He only approved 20.1 kWh per 100 km, despite crossing numerous Alpine passes. Even more: the ride in the iX3 was pure pleasure beyond the stress of charging. Colleague Markus Schönfeld certified the BMW in the test with low interior noise, plenty of space and a comfortable chassis. We add: He conquers passes like a doped mountain goat, in serpentines he sticks to the road like a gecko. Pure e-mobiles have long been playing in their very own automotive league - almost regardless of the vehicle class. Because they make traveling so much more pleasant, effortless, more relaxed and, last but not least, so much more bearable for people and nature around them. Enjoyable travel, enjoy the landscapes, experience new things - without regrets, without stress, without smoke and noise. That would be the real leap in quality compared to the 1960s.

FEAR OF REACH AND CHARGING STATION PROBLEMS
If it weren't for the charging experience that sometimes takes us back 50 years. Why are charging stations not only in Italy like to hide in absolute no man's land instead of at motorway service stations? Why are they - almost everywhere - not covered, unlike petrol pumps, where you stand much shorter in the rain? And why do charging stations not show what the charging process actually cost, like every gas pump for decades? Why can't your control displays be read in sunlight, why do they only communicate in the local language? Do we really have to start all over again with the e-mobility infrastructure? Apparently. On the very first day, the navigation system guides us to the first defective individual charging station. It seems to have been out of service for a long time, as suggested by lush cobwebs on the charging cables. The search for alternatives costs time and, given the decreasing remaining range, it also costs nerves. As a result, we calculate in more reserve and charge, because when the fill level rises, the charging power decreases significantly anyway, which takes disproportionately more time, and not always full to the brim. In addition: ultra-fast chargers - and only those allow really short charging stops with 75 kWh of storage capacity in the BMW - are still much rarer than one might believe. Only around 1200 charging points (Federal Network Agency, as of July 2021) really deserve this rating in Germany with charging capacities of 150 kW (which the BMW also digests) and more. Again for comparison: at the end of 2020 there were around 14,000 petrol stations in Germany. In other words: you can't always find a fast charger when you need it, but sometimes faster than you actually need it. You do charge anyway, because in fact - we would never have believed it - something like range anxiety creeps up on you. Because for some inexplicable reason there is always a supply gap on our tour between the stage destination and the currently displayed remaining range. It doesn't seldom dissolve, for example when it's back down the mountain, but you never know.

REPORT SHOWS: THIN CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE SOUTH
On the first day we come across four real charging stops, three of which are quick and easy. There is also good news for VW boss Herbert Diess - who recently complained so indignantly about these Ionity charging stations: At the Brenner Outlet, our last charging point of the day, all charging stations were free this time, even if ours happened to be The selected one delivered only a low charging power right from the start. And: if you don't know the way, like us, you are mistaken when coming from the autobahn - it was pitch dark and it was raining dogs and cats - for a long time until it finally loads. The orphaned, barren, drafty, roofed outlet parking garage at night is still not a homely place with a toilet and coffee bar. Will everything get better the next day? In front of us lies the glittering Lake Garda, the sun is shining, and a gorgeous landscape around us. There it is again, the holiday joy that makes you forget our 16-hour journey immediately. And in Riva del Garda, right on the lakeshore, we find an unoccupied fast charging column that quickly recharges the BMW. Then it goes on through the wonderful Trentino. We climb the Passo del Maniva without any problems, cross the Passo Di Croce Domini, enjoy magnificent views. Only in the early afternoon do we think again about the store and the next night. Result: Free hotel rooms - nothing to be done in a wide area. Powerful charging stations - none of them. And with the range it is slowly getting tight again.

2200 KILOMETER JOURNEY IN THE BMW IX3
We decide to move in the direction of Milan-Varese. There must be reasonable charging stations on the motorway. Today we know: it doesn't exist! Instead, in search of supposedly nearby charging stations, we wander through suburbs and industrial areas, fritter away kilometer after kilometer and find nothing twice. Finally - it is already evening - the rescue comes in the form of a fast charging station. Even as remote as possible, as if she were ashamed. After all: the BMW is charging, meanwhile the mosquitos are biting us. We don't reach our hotel on the shores of Lake Varese until around 8 p.m. Dinner, the first regular meal on this trip, makes up for it again. We sit outside, smell the lake, drink chilled Frizzante Secco, with large families chatting happily around us. Finally dolce vita, the sweet life. The next morning, however, it is clear: We have to leave this beautiful country, our ambitious travel plans and the charging infrastructure just don't go together. In Switzerland everything will actually change suddenly. Perfectly signposted, functioning fast charging stations on or right next to the motorway. There is even a rest stop or a café within sight, so that we don't have to lose sight of our vehicle with the expensive photo equipment. Electromobility can or could look so beautiful, so problem-free, even professional. You guessed it, it won't stay that way. Next charging stop at Stuttgart Airport. On the left a desolate parking garage, on the right a construction site. Nobody wants to take a break here. But the column does what it should. One thing is clear, however: the charge will barely last until Cologne, we have to go again. The caring GPS guides us to the next defective charging station in the middle of the night. But then does not recognize that we have not loaded here and therefore does not make a new loading suggestion. So manual search. At position 1 is the defective charging station that we have just left behind. That could also be solved a little better. When we finally reach Cologne, it is already 7:30 a.m., the last stage - although the streets are empty - took around five hours.

TIPS ON E-CAR TRAVEL
  • Planning the trip starts with the destination: better to the north than to the south. There is a well-developed charging network in the Netherlands and Scandinavia. In France, Switzerland and Austria it is roughly the same as in Germany. In Italy or Croatia it is very thin, in other countries it is hardly available. An exception is the charging infrastructure for Tesla, where only Tesla are allowed to charge.

  • Without the right charging card, you can fail or pay a lot abroad. Car manufacturers usually offer charging cards that also work abroad and do not lead to horrendous costs.

  • In addition to the charging cable for the charging / fast charging station, you should also pack the connection cable for a 230 volt household socket in the car - you can always find it somewhere in an emergency.

  • Plan enough time for charging stops, about every 250 kilometers. Do not run the batteries too empty in order to have emergency reserves in case the columns are defective or besieged. If you don't want to stand at the fast charging station for hours, you should only charge up to 80 percent. This can be done quickly, and some providers also face high stand fees.

  • Use the charging time to cool the vehicle interior. Air conditioning systems are energy guzzlers and shorten the range.

OUR CONCLUSION
Yes, travel is and will - hopefully - remain an important part of human culture. They enrich our lives and sharpen our view of all that is beautiful around us. E-mobility offers the great opportunity to make it more sustainable, environmentally friendly and also more pleasant. Converting private transport to a new form of energy supply is, however, a Herculean task. But the way those involved are currently doing it, this could again be a distant dream for many willing in the future. There is still too much beneficence thinking, short-term politics, blame, and sometimes just thoughtlessness. It won't work like that. It is high time to tackle the goal together. There is still a long way to go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·

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Ideally, if the car has in the GPS that is arriving at a charging point it should heat up the battery - I believe Tesla does this, not sure about BMW.
I believe the BMW powertrain responsible is talking about it at the end of this video (at 19:24)

 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
So while we are all focussing on maximum range (look at all advertising and reviews), we should actually only be focussed on getting the fastest charging EV we can afford.
Looks like BMW is reading this forum too :)
During a recent conversation with WhichCar, BMW i4 Project Leader David Ferrufino said “We are aiming for 600 kilometers of range for our fully-electric cars, and 100 kilometers with our plug-in hybrids in everyday driving.” He claimed that 1,000 km (621 miles) neither necessary nor a target BMW has in mind.
According to Ferrufino, charging speed and infrastructure is more important. “We not only have the advancements in battery technology, we also have the public charging network – which is growing rapidly. Going cross-country in Europe from Norway to Italy is already a joyful experience when you do it in an electric car,” he told WhichCar.

Full article here.
 

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Ideally, if the car has in the GPS that is arriving at a charging point it should heat up the battery - I believe Tesla does this, not sure about BMW.
An update on battery preheating for optimal DC charging, it seems that i4/iX already preheat the battery if going to a DC charger on satnav and seems that ix3 will also be updated for that.

Good news!


To ensure the fastest and most efficient power feed at DC fast-charging stations, regardless of operating and outside temperatures, the BMW iX3 (…) will be equipped with intelligent thermal management for the high-voltage battery as in the BMW i4 / BMW iX from November 2021. As soon as the active route guidance of the navigation system foresees a stopover at a High Power Charging Station, it already ensures that the battery is automatically preconditioned before arrival.”

 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
So today we drove from Rotterdam, Netherlands to Cholet, France. A trip that was calculated by A Better Route Planner at 806 kilometers / 6h53m driving time / 0h55m charging time / 4 stops / 7h49m travel time at a reference speed of 110%.

In the picture below a nice comparison of ABRP versus iDrive7 navigation, about 30 kilometers after departure.
Automotive navigation system Gps navigation device Vehicle Plant Motor vehicle


ABRP selected the same route as iDrive7, at this point 775 km's remaining. iDrive7 does not calculate any stops, but it does know about the trafic situation. ABRP does calculate charging stops but my free version knows nothing about trafic. So not fully comparable and it seems a coincidence that calculated travel times are so close: 7h29m voor ABRP and 7h20m for iDrive7.

I will tell you immediately how much time it took us to move the ICE towards it's destination. Total travel time was 8h32m (from 9.35AM to 6.07PM). Total driving time was 7h22m (see below), so all breaks for petrol, bathroom and lunch/coffee have taken exactly 1h10m. We were in no hurry, and took our time. Longest stop was for about 35 minutes and included coffee and une baguette au fromage. Driving time was about 40 minutes longer than predicted by ABRP which can be easily explained by 12 extra km's caused by driver navigation error and the trafic jams around Paris. This would have been exactly the same for ICE and EV.

Audio equipment Font Gadget Electronic instrument Display device


If we assume that the driving time would have been identical in the imaginary i4, and that the required charging time would not have been affected by 12 additonal km's, total driving time in our brand new i4 would have been 7h22m (actual driving time) plus 0h55m (planned charging time) makes 8h17m. Which is exactly 15 minutes faster than what we did in our ICE 3 Touring.

So what did we learn today?
  1. Driving time in the EV will be the same as in an ICE. We were travelling through Netherlands, Belgium and France so the max speed allowed was never higher than 130 km/h. We travelled at reference speed 110% so maintained a cruising speed of about 145 km/h where possible. Still in the green zone for an EV, as already discussed in this thread.

  2. During our trip ABRP navigated us to chargers of 175 kWh (2x) and Ionity stations of 350 kWh (2x). High speed charging therefore resulting in total charging time which does not allow sufficient resting time (if we consider today's travelling scheme the norm). This means that the Man is the real bottleneck and not the Machine.

  3. All chargers that we were directed to were operational and available.

  4. If we would have been driving an EV for real, we would probably have taken the exact same resting time. Which would mean that the EV would have been equally fast/slow as the ICE.

  5. However we made 2 somewhat longer stops during our trip (and one quicky for gas only within the first 5 kilometers after departure). Each stop was close to 30 minutes which enabled us to stretch our legs, take a coffee, go to the bathroom, eat our sandwich and we even took an ice cream which we consumed in the October sun.
    The EV requires 4 stops which will on average take about 15 minutes. Hardly enough to enjoy our ice cream. So this will require a change in behaviour. When travelling with your imaginary i4 you need to take many short stops instead of a limited number of longer stops. If you do not adapt, an EV will be slower than an ICE.

Not bad again for the EV, right?
But the pain is yet to come. We arrive at our destination with a virtual remaining battery charge of 14%. At our destination we have no possibilities to charge, so we will have to go to the nearest (6 km's) and fastest (50 kWh) charger in town (a city of 70.000 habitants). This will easily take an additional 2 hours, while filling up the ICE will cost me no more than 10 minutes at the closest Leclerc. Closest fastcharger is at 90 km's distance, so no option.

Conclusion: had we arrived in our so desired i4, then I would probably have spent 2 hours of this lovely evening at the local charging station instead of going out to dinner with my lovely wife. Bummer? Pick your destinations carefully!
 

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So today we drove from Rotterdam, Netherlands to Cholet, France. A trip that was calculated by A Better Route Planner at 806 kilometers / 6h53m driving time / 0h55m charging time / 4 stops / 7h49m travel time at a reference speed of 110%.

In the picture below a nice comparison of ABRP versus iDrive7 navigation, about 30 kilometers after departure.
View attachment 1757

ABRP selected the same route as iDrive7, at this point 775 km's remaining. iDrive7 does not calculate any stops, but it does know about the trafic situation. ABRP does calculate charging stops but my free version knows nothing about trafic. So not fully comparable and it seems a coincidence that calculated travel times are so close: 7h29m voor ABRP and 7h20m for iDrive7.

I will tell you immediately how much time it took us to move the ICE towards it's destination. Total travel time was 8h32m (from 9.35AM to 6.07PM). Total driving time was 7h22m (see below), so all breaks for petrol, bathroom and lunch/coffee have taken exactly 1h10m. We were in no hurry, and took our time. Longest stop was for about 35 minutes and included coffee and une baguette au fromage. Driving time was about 40 minutes longer than predicted by ABRP which can be easily explained by 12 extra km's caused by driver navigation error and the trafic jams around Paris. This would have been exactly the same for ICE and EV.

View attachment 1758

If we assume that the driving time would have been identical in the imaginary i4, and that the required charging time would not have been affected by 12 additonal km's, total driving time in our brand new i4 would have been 7h22m (actual driving time) plus 0h55m (planned charging time) makes 8h17m. Which is exactly 15 minutes faster than what we did in our ICE 3 Touring.

So what did we learn today?
  1. Driving time in the EV will be the same as in an ICE. We were travelling through Netherlands, Belgium and France so the max speed allowed was never higher than 130 km/h. We travelled at reference speed 110% so maintained a cruising speed of about 145 km/h where possible. Still in the green zone for an EV, as already discussed in this thread.

  2. During our trip ABRP navigated us to chargers of 175 kWh (2x) and Ionity stations of 350 kWh (2x). High speed charging therefore resulting in total charging time which does not allow sufficient resting time (if we consider today's travelling scheme the norm). This means that the Man is the real bottleneck and not the Machine.

  3. All chargers that we were directed to were operational and available.

  4. If we would have been driving an EV for real, we would probably have taken the exact same resting time. Which would mean that the EV would have been equally fast/slow as the ICE.

  5. However we made 2 somewhat longer stops during our trip (and one quicky for gas only within the first 5 kilometers after departure). Each stop was close to 30 minutes which enabled us to stretch our legs, take a coffee, go to the bathroom, eat our sandwich and we even took an ice cream which we consumed in the October sun.
    The EV requires 4 stops which will on average take about 15 minutes. Hardly enough to enjoy our ice cream. So this will require a change in behaviour. When travelling with your imaginary i4 you need to take many short stops instead of a limited number of longer stops. If you do not adapt, an EV will be slower than an ICE.

Not bad again for the EV, right?
But the pain is yet to come. We arrive at our destination with a virtual remaining battery charge of 14%. At our destination we have no possibilities to charge, so we will have to go to the nearest (6 km's) and fastest (50 kWh) charger in town (a city of 70.000 habitants). This will easily take an additional 2 hours, while filling up the ICE will cost me no more than 10 minutes at the closest Leclerc. Closest fastcharger is at 90 km's distance, so no option.

Conclusion: had we arrived in our so desired i4, then I would probably have spent 2 hours of this lovely evening at the local charging station instead of going out to dinner with my lovely wife. Bummer? Pick your destinations carefully!
What a great test! And it is very much in line with Bjørn who also thinks that the bottleneck for new EVs are the human driving the car. The range and charging times for the i4 will be just fine if you want to travel at the same pace as an ICE car.

And if I remember correctly, idrive 8 should calculate charging stops as well. So I'm sure that I will only rely on idrive8 and not use any 3rd party apps when going on trips once I get my i4.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
The range and charging times for the i4 will be just fine if you want to travel at the same pace as an ICE car.
Motorways are not i4's weak spot, at least not in most North-Western European countries.
I am more worried about the countryside, away from the motorways. In many countries that's where you will have a hard time finding a decent charger. If you are lucky enough to find one at all. And that's where the i4 (and all other EV's) may fail as a holiday car.
 

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Motorways are not i4's weak spot, at least not in most North-Western European countries.
I am more worried about the countryside, away from the motorways. In many countries that's where you will have a hard time finding a decent charger. If you are lucky enough to find one at all. And that's where the i4 (and all other EV's) may fail as a holiday car.
that is where ABRP does its job (as long as there is any charger around :)
 

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in line with Bjørn who also thinks that the bottleneck for new EVs are the human driving the car
wish it was true in my country - you can read (from anti-ev protagonists) the biggest con is that cars do not have 1000-1200km of range like their 20y old Passat B6 TDI
and they do not understand that they do stops - because they say they are machodrivers that do not have bladder and lumbars😂😂😂
 
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