[pdk42]

Almost every auto shop can fix a gas car. There are only a handful of independent shops that can fix an EV. In my county there are 400K people. I'm an electrical engineer and the modern EV isn't simpler. It has fewer moving parts and fewer parts but their is nothing simple about the electronics or batteries. A lot of people fix their own cars and I don't think most people will attempt to fix their own EV due to proprietary software and limited parts availability besides from BMW. The software diagnostic tools is the biggest issue with EVs.

Just in my small town....does gas or EV sound riskier for getting repairs without getting ripped off.
Gas:
50+ Part Dealers with parts made by a dozen different manufacturers.
50+ Independent Auto Service centers.
10,000+ of locals that know how to work on gas cars
Multiple dealers that can work on the car.

My I4.
0 - Part places
0 - Independent Auto places. Yes they can service brakes and tires but not EV related components.
1- BMW Dealer, which doesn't stock EV parts. EV specific parts
2-people that know how to work on my i4 at the dealer.

I love my EV and wouldn't ever go back, but I don't think it is for everyone...yet! I'm just very fortunate like everyone else on this forum.

I agree with a lot of what you say here. You only need to look at people running a Fisker Ocean to realise that barely a year after they went bust the cars are virtually unserviceable - not only due to spare part availability but also because of ongoing software issues that will never get fixed (e.g. the HVAC vent control is prone to failure because there is no torque limit programmed into the software for the motor controller). EVs, like all modern car, are complex and highly software-defined.

On top of that, it's distinctly possible (perhaps even probable) that there will be a big shift in battery technology over the lifetime of the vehicle ((e.g. so-called solid-state batteries) that will decimate the value of our current cars. And if you want to be even more doom-mongering, it's quite possible in some regions (the US being near the top of the list) where EV charging infrastructure never gets to critical mass (for political or commercial reasons) and the whole pack of cards comes falling down.

Bottom line - EVs are great and I love the ownership experience, but for sure I'd be a lot more cautious if I didn't have the available income to take the risk.

 

[Phillies8008]

The issue is most people need the large vehicle all at the same time. For example, end of the year is Christmas week for traveling with family. Renting a minivan in February is super easy, but renting any large car is difficult and expensive in the last week of the year. This is a BMW forum so spending $1000 for 1 week is no issue, but for the average it is. I agree with you but I also understand the common idiot.


I'm an engineer and used to work in an engineering town where everyone was well off, so I understand your points. But the average American isn't that well off. I now live in the Florida panhandle which is very poor. 100K miles is nothing for a car. Every car I've owned went way past that. 200K miles is the new normal for many cars going past 300K miles.

Almost every auto shop can fix a gas car. There are only a handful of independent shops that can fix an EV. In my county there are 400K people. I'm an electrical engineer and the modern EV isn't simpler. It has fewer moving parts and fewer parts but their is nothing simple about the electronics or batteries. A lot of people fix their own cars and I don't think most people will attempt to fix their own EV due to proprietary software and limited parts availability besides from BMW. The software diagnostic tools is the biggest issue with EVs.

Just in my small town....does gas or EV sound riskier for getting repairs without getting ripped off.
Gas:
50+ Part Dealers with parts made by a dozen different manufacturers.
50+ Independent Auto Service centers.
10,000+ of locals that know how to work on gas cars
Multiple dealers that can work on the car.

My I4.
0 - Part places
0 - Independent Auto places. Yes they can service brakes and tires but not EV related components.
1- BMW Dealer, which doesn't stock EV parts. EV specific parts
2-people that know how to work on my i4 at the dealer.

I love my EV and wouldn't ever go back, but I don't think it is for everyone...yet! I'm just very fortunate like everyone else on this forum.

The fact that the average American isn't that well off is even more reason for them to buy an EV – the cost of ownership should be lower without having to buy gasoline*, get oil changes, and pay for maintenance on an automobile with a much larger number of parts to break. There's a reason dealerships are worried about EVs killing their repair business.

Sure, $1,000 for a week isn't chump change, but when you're saving $250 a month (or whatever) on gas, maintenance, etc., it's not really that hard to come to the conclusion that EV makes more economic sense than ICE. And that's even assuming that you need to rent a vehicle, which you frankly really don't. Charging on the occasional trip and not driving a land barge to go on vacation really aren't that big of an issue, outside of peoples' imaginations.

EVs, outside of the battery and motors, use the same parts as their ICE brethren – a shock is a shock, brake pads are brake pads, body panels are body panels, etc. For all but the battery and motors, which are some of the less likely parts to need maintenance, an EV is just as repairable as any other modern vehicle – at its heart, it's still just a car. The idea that EVs are some weird thing that no one can possibly work on is overblown; if you can change the brakes on an ICE vehicle, you can change them on an EV.

As you say, and as I've said before, EV isn't for everyone yet. But it's for most people now.

*Once again, assuming that level 2 charging at home is possible. If not, then they should stick with ICE for now (or perhaps a flavor of hybrid), in my opinion and experience.

 

[Phillies8008]

I agree with a lot of what you say here. You only need to look at people running a Fisker Ocean to realise that barely a year after they went bust the cars are virtually unserviceable - not only due to spare part availability but also because of ongoing software issues that will never get fixed (e.g. the HVAC vent control is prone to failure because there is no torque limit programmed into the software for the motor controller). EVs, like all modern car, are complex and highly software-defined.

On top of that, it's distinctly possible (perhaps even probable) that there will be a big shift in battery technology over the lifetime of the vehicle ((e.g. so-called solid-state batteries) that will decimate the value of our current cars. And if you want to be even more doom-mongering, it's quite possible in some regions (the US being near the top of the list) where EV charging infrastructure never gets to critical mass (for political or commercial reasons) and the whole pack of cards comes falling down.

Bottom line - EVs are great and I love the ownership experience, but for sure I'd be a lot more cautious if I didn't have the available income to take the risk.

Any manufacturer going belly-up is going to be a problem with regards to service and parts. This has nothing to do with EVs and everything to do with perhaps not taking a flyer on a start-up auto company. If this is a concern, buy from established manufacturers.

A "big shift" in battery technology has been five years away for 30 years now – I'm not holding my breath for any wholesale changes any time soon. Just like the last 30 years, change is much, much more likely to continue to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. And if it happens, it happens. Your current EV will still work just as well the day after that theoretical breakthrough as the day before. Buying a car based on its resale value is kind of a fool's game anyway – the best way to get value out of a car is to keep it long-term. If you choose to flip cars regularly, you've already lost out economically*. Unless you're buying a very high-end model (and probably not even then), cars are not investments.

I'm not sure whether you can use state politics to determine whether or not charging infrastructure is going to grow. I live in one of the most conservative states in the country, South Carolina, and EV sales grew 54% year-over-year from 2023 to 2024. I see no reason to believe that charging supply won't grow to fit demand.

*Which is fine if that's what brings you pleasure and you can afford it – damn near everything we choose to spend disposable income can be classified by someone as a waste. Most people don't always buy based on the most sound economic option. If they did, a lot of consumer products wouldn't exist.

 

[bbgator]

Plenty of examples on I4 talk. BMW is a luxury brand and is more expensive to repair gas or EV, but a simple EV socket replacement is $9,300. In 10 years, BMW will have this repair down to $300 and you will have dozens of places to get it fixed. But today, the repair is hard and limited places are willing to do it. This is hearsay since I cannot verify his account but if true $9,300 to replace the DC charge socket is nuts. Nothing on a gas car is $9,300 except the whole new engine which no one ever does. Everyone puts in a junkyard engine or JDM in a gas car for $5K. I'm used to 200K mile S-Class Mercedes pricing and all the prices I've heard on EVs are higher. Never the motor or battery but something else that the dealer knows you don't have another option. I still don't believe it is $9,300 but even 1/2 that is believable based on other EV repair cost and outrageous.

https://www.i4talk.com/threads/damaged-pin-in-dc-charging-port.14111/?post_id=290952

 

[bbgator]

Back on topic. We don't know why BMW postponed, probably waiting and see with the current political climate. BMW is luxury and EV is the luxury car of the future today. We may disagree on its widespread adaption in 5 years and the value/risk proposition, but I think we can agree BMW is the best brand positioned to gain EV market share in the luxury market....all they have to do is release the ix3 and ix1 in the USA. I don't like SUVs but they are the big sellers and BMW's USA SUV lineup is limited.

 

[Phillies8008]

I personally wouldn't base my purchasing decisions on a single anecdotal incident, but I guess it all depends on the individual. I mean, the transmission falls out on some ICE vehicles. Does that dissuade anyone from buying one? I kind of can't believe that a BMW owner is claiming that nothing on an ICE vehicle costs $9,300 to fix, but just in case, here's an anecdotal example of a VANOS failure that apparently carried a $16,000 repair bill from the dealership.

If you're going to be scared off by every Internet horror story, you're not going to buy anything – give me any make and model and I can find someone who had a horrible experience that resulted in a big repair bill.

 

[i4m50Norway]

I agree with a lot of what you say here. You only need to look at people running a Fisker Ocean to realise that barely a year after they went bust the cars are virtually unserviceable - not only due to spare part availability but also because of ongoing software issues that will never get fixed (e.g. the HVAC vent control is prone to failure because there is no torque limit programmed into the software for the motor controller). EVs, like all modern car, are complex and highly software-defined.
........

Here in Norway, we are wondering what will happen first ?

1. Tesla's unable to drive after Tesla Corp get broke - and shuts down.
2. Someone order Lockheed Martin to shut down the Norwegian Airforce F35 Fighter jets.

 

[i4m50Norway]

Plenty of examples on I4 talk. BMW is a luxury brand and is more expensive to repair gas or EV, but a simple EV socket replacement is $9,300. In 10 years, BMW will have this repair down to $300 and you will have dozens of places to get it fixed. But today, the repair is hard and limited places are willing to do it. This is hearsay since I cannot verify his account but if true $9,300 to replace the DC charge socket is nuts. Nothing on a gas car is $9,300 except the whole new engine which no one ever does. Everyone puts in a junkyard engine or JDM in a gas car for $5K. I'm used to 200K mile S-Class Mercedes pricing and all the prices I've heard on EVs are higher. Never the motor or battery but something else that the dealer knows you don't have another option. I still don't believe it is $9,300 but even 1/2 that is believable based on other EV repair cost and outrageous.

https://www.i4talk.com/threads/damaged-pin-in-dc-charging-port.14111/?post_id=290952

Unfortunately the socket replacement is not simple on most EV's :

VW eGolf - USD 3000 at dealer - 2000 at independent. (This is quite common on 7 - 10 years old golfs due to water damage)
i4 - USD 10000 at dealer.

Reason on both cars is you have to remove High Voltage battery, and i4 battery is part of chassis structure (bolts is USD 1000 and "stretched" single use bolts) and much heavier than eGolf battery.

Another and much more common issue is damage to the lower battery cover, USD 4000 for the cover and then USD 6000 for work, new bolts etc.

 

[pdk42]

Any manufacturer going belly-up is going to be a problem with regards to service and parts. This has nothing to do with EVs and everything to do with perhaps not taking a flyer on a start-up auto company. If this is a concern, buy from established manufacturers.

I mentioned Fisker only to show that software is a huge part of modern vehicle design.

A "big shift" in battery technology has been five years away for 30 years now – I'm not holding my breath for any wholesale changes any time soon. Just like the last 30 years, change is much, much more likely to continue to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. And if it happens, it happens.

Lithium batteries only became commercially available in the early 90s so the entire industry is barely 30 years old. There has been huge progress over that time. Energy densities today are approx 3-4x that of the early cells. Most experts think that trajectory will continue for the next decade, even without any radical new technology, probably doubling again by 2040. I mentioned solid state just as an example. The wider point is that unlike ICE-powered cars, our EVs are guaranteed to bleed value in unexpected ways simply because the tech is still quite young.

Your current EV will still work just as well the day after that theoretical breakthrough as the day before. Buying a car based on its resale value is kind of a fool's game anyway – the best way to get value out of a car is to keep it long-term. If you choose to flip cars regularly, you've already lost out economically*. Unless you're buying a very high-end model (and probably not even then), cars are not investments.

Yes, all this is true. But EV depreciation is higher than ICE, even without any significant advances over the past few years in bettery tech. We all know that depreciation is the highest part of running a car.

I'm not sure whether you can use state politics to determine whether or not charging infrastructure is going to grow. I live in one of the most conservative states in the country, South Carolina, and EV sales grew 54% year-over-year from 2023 to 2024. I see no reason to believe that charging supply won't grow to fit demand.

It seems to me that it needs both a supportive regulatory/political backdrop and commercial investment for us to get to where we need to be in order for EVs to be suitable for the majority of the car-owning/driving public. Even in the UK where the charging infrastructure is improving rapidly, there is still a very long way to go.