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Interesting news from Ford/Tesla

2043 Views 63 Replies 24 Participants Last post by i4m50Norway, 21 h ago

artp

Discussion Starter · 6 d ago

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...n-access-to-12-000-tesla-superchargers--.html

Ford going to put NACS connector in new EVs starting in 2025 for direct access to Tesla superchargers

Reactions: 5

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darylp310

· #2 · 6 d ago

Wow. Big news! This is actually a pretty smart move on Ford's part.

Previously Tesla wouldn't license their NACS technology to anyone else without a license fee, which made it non-economical for others to use. But I wonder if there was government palm greasing to make this free now for 3rd parties to use? Maybe part of the agreement for Tesla to receive government funding?

Reactions: 2

Magicrat

· #3 · 6 d ago

That could be a big deal for Ford!!! I can't see that they would phase out CCS, but if you are old enough to remember BetaMax vs. VHS...........we know how that turned out.

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Wilber

· #4 · 6 d ago

Yes! This is a BFD. Really helps the transition to EVs by putting pressure on other EV manufacturers (like BMW) to do the same.

Reactions: 1

KarlInSanDiego

· #5 · 6 d ago

Tesla needed 1 partner to get IRA money for new installations. IMO, this is not a great thing for EV transition, as it formalizes that Betamax and VHS are will be in play for far too long. I would expect that Tesla decides against opening their stations to everyone and this really confuses the issue of whether or not Tesla's money is well spent adding longer cables and their complex double connector workaround.

Farley's voicing about smaller batteries being important is a great insight. But it's so hindsight given Ford vehicles are massive batteried, and Tesla has created that issue in the first place. Will be interesting to see how quickly the industry can pivot to smaller batteries and less range with more affordable cars.

Reactions: 4

Wilber

· #6 · 6 d ago

KarlInSanDiego said:
Tesla needed 1 partner to get IRA money for new installations. IMO, this is not a great thing for EV transition, as it formalizes that Betamax and VHS are will be in play for far too long. I would expect that Tesla decides against opening their stations to everyone and this really confuses the issue of whether or not Tesla's money is well spent adding longer cables and their complex double connector workaround.

Farley's voicing about smaller batteries being important is a great insight. But it's so hindsight given Ford vehicles are massive batteried, and Tesla has created that issue in the first place. Will be interesting to see how quickly the industry can pivot to smaller batteries and less range with more affordable cars.

I respectfully disagree about what Tesla will do. A MAJOR mission of Tesla is to accelerate the transition to Clean Energy, including EVs. So, Tesla would like to open their stations to everyone. but, of course, those other companies have to come to an agreement with Tesla as to what kind of royalties. they will pay. As for IRA requirements, can you please provide a link that supports your assertion? I wouldnt be surprised if the IRA requires some kind of collaboration with other EV makers, but perhaps the IRA incentive is based on number of EVs involved. For instance, if this coilaboration did not involve Ford, but involved Lucid, I dont think the IRA would look as favorably on the situation.

BadgerGreg

· #7 · 6 d ago

Bold (and winning) move by Ford. Of the legacy OEMs in the US, Ford has the greatest gravitational pull because of their EV production levels and reputation. I think this is the beginning of the end for CCS in the US.

Also, if this means the proliferation of Tesla SC stations and the end of Electrify America, we'll all be better off.

I hope BMW has the brains to follow in Ford's footsteps.

Reactions: 2

KarlInSanDiego

· #8 · 6 d ago

Wilber said:
As for IRA requirements, can you please provide a link that supports your assertion?

markets.businessinsider.com

Tesla faces a $7.5 billion ultimatum: Open up its charging network to rivals or be locked out of Biden's EV subsidies, report says

Elon Musk's Tesla has to open its network up to the plugs used by other charging companies to get in on $7.5 billion in subsidies planned by Biden.

markets.businessinsider.com

Reactions: 4

KarlInSanDiego

· #9 · 6 d ago

"By opening up its network, Tesla will be eligible to compete for federal grants to help create a nationwide charging network. The infrastructure law blocks federal subsidies for chargers that only serve one brand. "

apnews.com

White House: Tesla to make some EV chargers available to all

WASHINGTON (AP) — Electric car giant Tesla will, for the first time, make some of its charging stations available to all U.S. electric vehicles by the end of next year, under a new plan announced Wednesday by the White House.

apnews.com

Reactions: 2

KarlInSanDiego

· #10 · 6 d ago (Edited)

Correction, the subsidies for charging infrastructure is IIJA, not IRA

"
Electric Vehicle Charging Stations.--
``(1) Standards.--Electric vehicle charging infrastructure
installed using funds provided under this title shall provide,
at a minimum--
``(A) non-proprietary charging connectors that meet
applicable industry safety standards; and
``(B) open access to payment methods that are
available to all members of the public to ensure secure,
convenient, and equal access to the electric vehicle
charging infrastructure that shall not be limited by
membership to a particular payment provider.
"

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684/text

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Reactions: 1

BlueHoosier

· #11 · 6 d ago

The wife was right. I should have leased.

Reactions: 3

Drandall

· #12 · 6 d ago

So does this mean that within the next 3 years or so that our cars will become obsolete? If NACS does become the new standard then the existing CCS network will not be maintained. Will this leave us out in the cold and relegate our cars to local errand runners because there will be no network for CCS on road trips? I know that they mentioned adapters but the way I understand it’s only for Ford EVs.

Reactions: 1

Drandall

· #13 · 6 d ago

BlueHoosier said:
The wife was right. I should have leased.

Yeah, or bought a f-ing Tesla

Reactions: 1

Wilber

· #14 · 6 d ago

KarlInSanDiego said:
Tesla faces a $7.5 billion ultimatum: Open up its charging network to rivals or be locked out of Biden's EV subsidies, report says

Elon Musk's Tesla has to open its network up to the plugs used by other charging companies to get in on $7.5 billion in subsidies planned by Biden.

markets.businessinsider.com

Thanks, but that is all high level stuff and doesnt include the exact way (fees, etc) other manufacturers can arrange to use Tesla Superchargers. Also, it focuses on the CCS standard. Doesnt mention other companies using the Tesla standard (like Ford plans to do). I have done a little searching at the DOT website and havent yet found any useful detailed information on this.

BadgerGreg

· #15 · 6 d ago

Drandall said:
So does this mean that within the next 3 years or so that our cars will become obsolete? If NACS does become the new standard then the existing CCS network will not be maintained. Will this leave us out in the cold and relegate our cars to local errand runners because there will be no network for CCS on road trips? I know that they mentioned adapters but the way I understand it’s only for Ford EVs.

I don't think this means obsolescence; instead, if we eventually shift over to NACS, it won't happen overnight and we'll have adapters. This won't only be Ford's and Tesla's show; Ford is only the first to announce the switch.

Reactions: 3

Wilber

· #16 · 6 d ago

Drandall said:
So does this mean that within the next 3 years or so that our cars will become obsolete? If NACS does become the new standard then the existing CCS network will not be maintained. Will this leave us out in the cold and relegate our cars to local errand runners because there will be no network for CCS on road trips? I know that they mentioned adapters but the way I understand it’s only for Ford EVs.

The references i am reading tonight focus on the govt requring Tesla to provide CCS chargers at all locations. Exactly how many, etc is not clear. Of course, Ford is going one step further by using the NACS standard. Of course, NACS may become the new standard, but i dont expect that soon, and there should be decent number of CCS chargers for the foreseeable future. Just not as many as NACS. Let's hope BMW comes up with a solution that works well for us.

Reactions: 1

FirmRip

· #17 · 6 d ago

Drandall said:
So does this mean that within the next 3 years or so that our cars will become obsolete? If NACS does become the new standard then the existing CCS network will not be maintained. Will this leave us out in the cold and relegate our cars to local errand runners because there will be no network for CCS on road trips? I know that they mentioned adapters but the way I understand it’s only for Ford EVs.

I don't see how it will leave everyone out in the cold given the investment in CCS, supply chain commitments, etc. from everyone except Tesla (and soon to be Ford). Will it slow down the rollout of CCS? Possibly? But it's hard to say.

Now, if GM, Rivian, etc. all hop on the NACS bandwagon, that could be a big market-mover.

What I see happening is we enter into Dongle Hell. Good thing I can charge very cheaply at home for free!

Reactions: 5

Drandall

· #18 · 6 d ago

FirmRip said:
I don't see how it will leave everyone out in the cold given the investment in CCS, supply chain commitments, etc. from everyone except Tesla (and soon to be Ford). Will it slow down the rollout of CCS? Possibly? But it's hard to say.

Now, if GM, Rivian, etc. all hop on the NACS bandwagon, that could be a big market-mover.

What I see happening is we enter into Dongle Hell. Good thing I can charge very cheaply at home for free!

I see this having a domino effect with all manufacturers, especially if one more manufacturer changes soon. I can only hope that there will be a retrofit for CCS vehicles. Charging at home is great and possibly the single best thing about EVs but I would also like to keep the ability to travel more than 100-150 miles from my house.

Reactions: 5

rollermonkey

· #19 · 6 d ago

Wilber said:
I respectfully disagree about what Tesla will do. A MAJOR mission of Tesla is to accelerate the transition to Clean Energy, including EVs. So, Tesla would like to open their stations to everyone. but, of course, those other companies have to come to an agreement with Tesla as to what kind of royalties. they will pay.

I might have believed you a decade ago, but their 'affordable $35k car' costs over $50k, so I'm not certain how much they want this any more.

Oh, and Musk swore up and down that any and all Tesla technology would be open source, including the charging systems, and they stuck to that position SO well.

I havn't believed anything about the benevolence of Tesla for several years now, even well before Musk started cozying up to the MAGA crowd.

Reactions: 5

Wilber

· #20 · 6 d ago

rollermonkey said:
I might have believed you a decade ago, but their 'affordable $35k car' costs over $50k, so I'm not certain how much they want this any more.

Oh, and Musk swore up and down that any and all Tesla technology would be open source, including the charging systems, and they stuck to that position SO well.

I havn't believed anything about the benevolence of Tesla for several years now, even well before Musk started cozying up to the MAGA crowd.

I just checked the Tesla website, the price for a basic Model 3 is $40,240 and it qualifies for a $3750 tax credit, so the price for most folks for the basic car is about $36,500. (plus tax and reg) And, there is much talk about an even cheaper car "Model 2" in development. Should hear more about that later this year. The fact is that in recent months Tesla has substantally reduced the price of Model 3 and Model Y and that clearly helps more folks convert to EV.

Remember, Tesla has an Energy division that is booming. Supplying tons of large batteries around the world for stationary storage

As far as things being open source. Yes i remember the E-guy talking about that various times, but i dont recall it including all kinds of software. I do recall Tesla saying a few years ago that they are open to discussing access to their superchargers with other companies. But, either no company has stepped forward, or they couldnt come to an agreement on terms.

I agree with you that the E-guy has said many things that ended up never happening or being seriously delayed. And, it would be great if the Board of Directors removed him! Plenty of other folks at Tesla that could take his place, and probably do the job better!

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