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Interesting news from Ford/Tesla

1814 Views 62 Replies 23 Participants Last post by rollermonkey, 2 d ago

artp

Discussion Starter · 4 d ago

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...n-access-to-12-000-tesla-superchargers--.html

Ford going to put NACS connector in new EVs starting in 2025 for direct access to Tesla superchargers

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21 - 40 of 63 Posts

MaskedRacerX

· #21 · 3 d ago

FirmRip said:
I don't see how it will leave everyone out in the cold given the investment in CCS, supply chain commitments, etc. from everyone except Tesla (and soon to be Ford). Will it slow down the rollout of CCS? Possibly? But it's hard to say.

Now, if GM, Rivian, etc. all hop on the NACS bandwagon, that could be a big market-mover.

What I see happening is we enter into Dongle Hell. Good thing I can charge very cheaply at home for free!

Keep in mind the underlying NACS communication protocols, can be implemented with a CCS physical connector, so you can use a CCS_TO_TESLA adapter, and get the seamless billing, plug-and-charge type experience (though your native application). The vehicle needs the proper hardware, but the [physical] port can remain the same, which means it also retains standard CCS compatibility.

BMW could implement the changes, retain the CCS port (and compatibility), and with a ~$xxx adapter, you could slip into any Tesla Supercharger in the US (you know, with the proper partnership, billing integration, etc.).

I'm pretty positive about this, it's better than Magic Dock (as once your car has proper hardware, it will work everywhere - and it's much better process), so BMW could do this and not necessarily be fully reliant on Tesla's continued support - and I'd assume (and hope) a decent amount of continued CCS infrastructure development outside of this initiative (while retaining all those L1/L2 J connector chargers).

Side note: I'm here because the i4 M50 is at the top of the list for an M3P replacement in mid-2024

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Magicrat

· #22 · 3 d ago

This quote from the Ford Press Release.................
The BlueOval Charge Network is already North America’s largest public charging network with over 84,000 chargers including access to over 10,000 public DC fast-chargers.

This is BS........Ford is saying all the EA, EVgo, Chargepoint are all part of THEIR network. This is not Ford's network, its the "public" charging network. This "marketing" to the highest degree!! Ford car buyers think they are getting this huge network that's theirs............BS.

Reactions: 4

KarlInSanDiego

· #23 · 3 d ago (Edited)

Wilber said:
Thanks, but that is all high level stuff and doesnt include the exact way (fees, etc) other manufacturers can arrange to use Tesla Superchargers. Also, it focuses on the CCS standard. Doesnt mention other companies using the Tesla standard (like Ford plans to do). I have done a little searching at the DOT website and havent yet found any useful detailed information on this.

No one knows how this is going to play out. Here is where we were over time:
Nissan used CHAdeMO as a standard for the (SV) Leaf to DC fast charge which also includes the standard of J1772 in 2011. They were arguably the first to adopt a multi-company standard for DC fast charging.
Mitsubishi i-Mev also supported CHAdeMo.
Tesla used a completely proprietary plug and communication interface on the Model S for both DC and Level 2 charging in 2012.
Chevrolet used CCS as a standard for the Spark to DC fast charge and J1772 in 2013. They were an early adopter of DC fast charging in USA.
BMW i3 supported CCS for DC charging in the US when launched in 2014
Fiat 500e, Volt, and other early EVs/PHEV often didn't support DC fast charging

Now fast forward 11 years. CHAdeMO failed to get traction as Toyota and Honda never produced EVs in any numbers, nor did Subaru. Thus the Japanese DC standard was abandoned, and the Nissan Araya is using CCS.

Tesla leveraged its proprietary connection and protocol and access to its closed network as a feature, thus creating a non-standard intentionally for that entire time. They feigned interest in others paying them to play on their network, but the concept of having the Tesla connector and communication protocol as a standard was always a hollow bluff. Until IIJA arrived and said we will pay to place Level 3 charging infrastructure, but not to a single make proprietary system.

CCS on the other hand, was adopted by more EV manufacturers who were not intent on creating a monopoly redundant single make system back in 2012. Both in the USA and in Europe and Australia, the SAE & EAMA CCS standard that integrates the J1772 standard has become the defacto charging infrastructure. The EU told Tesla, you are not welcome to create your supercharger network and sell your cars here with a proprietary connector as it had already adopted the standard of CCS since 2014. So Tesla did what it should have done here, and it quickly pivoted to use the CCS standard. Korea has switched from CHAdeMO to CCS. There is also a Chinese standard China GB/T that is unique to China.

Nissan got no support from its Japanese sibling companies to create demand for CHAdeMo and over time it's died out.

IMO, the move to Tesla's connector, the retronymed North American Charging Standard, is a slap in the face to the entire concept of standards. Tesla chose to ignore standards early, and just because they have a monopoly of solely Tesla owned charging infrastructure, it does not make it an open standard.

Again, there is no clarity about Tesla's future supporting other auto manufacturers, nor is there any open standard for 3rd parties to build Tesla compatible chargers, as they have yet to release details of the protocol for Tesla chargers to the community as a standard that others can engineer around.

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KarlInSanDiego

· #24 · 3 d ago

BadgerGreg said:
Also, if this means the proliferation of Tesla SC stations and the end of Electrify America, we'll all be better off.

You might not like the current state of how EA is run, but they've built that network as penance for DieselGate. The US has been in serious need of non-Tesla high powered chargers and EA has been the leader in that space. Do you really wish they didn't exist? I'm surprise people aren't worried about a Tesla only national charging network. That's a monopoly folks, and it's run by a frankly pretty messed up guy, who is no longer working to hide his messed up beliefs.

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Variable430

· #25 · 3 d ago

Wilber said:
Yes! This is a BFD. Really helps the transition to EVs by putting pressure on other EV manufacturers (like BMW) to do the same.

I would never use a Tesla supercharger. Not going to enrich a degenerate like musk. If the free charging option for Ford EVs was on the Tesla network that in itself would make it an NFW.

Variable430

· #26 · 3 d ago

KarlInSanDiego said:
"By opening up its network, Tesla will be eligible to compete for federal grants to help create a nationwide charging network. The infrastructure law blocks federal subsidies for chargers that only serve one brand. "

White House: Tesla to make some EV chargers available to all

WASHINGTON (AP) — Electric car giant Tesla will, for the first time, make some of its charging stations available to all U.S. electric vehicles by the end of next year, under a new plan announced Wednesday by the White House.

apnews.com

Yes Musk the degenerate is doing this purely for personal enrichment. He’s a human crap bag and a scum.

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J_P

· #27 · 3 d ago

I'm so glad I don't have to put up with this sort of crap in the UK.

A lot of Americans seem to be very anti-government but this is exactly the sort of thing that governments should regulate so that the needs of people are put before corporates. Leaving 'the market to decide' will just mean a worse EV experience for all Americans for a long time to come 😞

Reactions: 5

Variable430

· #28 · 3 d ago

Wilber said:
I respectfully disagree about what Tesla will do. A MAJOR mission of Tesla is to accelerate the transition to Clean Energy, including EVs. So, Tesla would like to open their stations to everyone. but, of course, those other companies have to come to an agreement with Tesla as to what kind of royalties. they will pay. As for IRA requirements, can you please provide a link that supports your assertion? I wouldnt be surprised if the IRA requires some kind of collaboration with other EV makers, but perhaps the IRA incentive is based on number of EVs involved. For instance, if this coilaboration did not involve Ford, but involved Lucid, I dont think the IRA would look as favorably on the situation.

Elon Musk is A human degenerate. Anyone who cares about the climate wouldn’t be backing right wing fascists like MoRon DeSantis. He’s a scum full stop. The only reason he’s doing this is to get access to federal funding.

Reactions: 2

Variable430

· #29 · 3 d ago

BlueHoosier said:
The wife was right. I should have leased.

Well given the tax credits can only be received on leases going forward that might be what you do in the future. your I4 will serve you well in the meantime and if you got the tax credit you are money good.

Variable430

· #30 · 3 d ago

J_P said:
I'm so glad I don't have to put up with this sort of crap in the UK.

A lot of Americans seem to be very anti-government but this is exactly the sort of thing that governments should regulate so that the needs of people are put before corporates. Leaving 'the market to decide' will just mean a worse EV experience for all Americans for a long time to come 😞

The UK has its own kettle of fish but understand the sentiment. Having lived and worked in the the City for a few years the decision to put Brexit to a public referendum will go down in history as one of the worst decisions in the history of England and the UK.

Reactions: 5

Wilber

· #31 · 3 d ago (Edited)

KarlInSanDiego said:
No one knows how this is going to play out. Here is where we were over time:
Nissan used CHAdeMO as a standard for the (SV) Leaf to DC fast charge which also includes the standard of J1772 in 2011. They were arguably the first to adopt a multi-company standard for DC fast charging.
Mitsubishi i-Mev also supported CHAdeMo.
Tesla used a completely proprietary plug and communication interface on the Model S for both DC and Level 2 charging in 2012.
Chevrolet used CCS as a standard for the Spark to DC fast charge and J1772 in 2013. They were an early adopter of DC fast charging in USA.
BMW i3 supported CCS for DC charging in the US when launched in 2014
Fiat 500e, Volt, and other early EVs/PHEV often didn't support DC fast charging

Now fast forward 11 years. CHAdeMO failed to get traction as Toyota and Honda never produced EVs in any numbers, nor did Subaru. Thus the Japanese DC standard was abandoned, and the Nissan Araya is using CCS.

Tesla leveraged its proprietary connection and protocol and access to its closed network as a feature, thus creating a non-standard intentionally for that entire time. They feigned interest in others paying them to play on their network, but the concept of having the Tesla connector and communication protocol as a standard was always a hollow bluff. Until IIJA arrived and said we will pay to place Level 3 charging infrastructure, but not to a single make proprietary system.

CCS on the other hand, was adopted by more EV manufacturers who were not intent on creating a monopoly redundant single make system back in 2012. Both in the USA and in Europe and Australia, the SAE & EAMA CCS standard that integrates the J1772 standard has become the defacto charging infrastructure. The EU told Tesla, you are not welcome to create your supercharger network and sell your cars here with a proprietary connector as it had already adopted the standard of CCS since 2014. So Tesla did what it should have done here, and it quickly pivoted to use the CCS standard. Korea has switched from CHAdeMO to CCS. There is also a Chinese standard China GB/T that is unique to China.

Nissan got no support from its Japanese sibling companies to create demand for CHAdeMo and over time it's died out.

IMO, the move to Tesla's connector, the retronymed North American Charging Standard, is a slap in the face to the entire concept of standards. Tesla chose to ignore standards early, and just because they have a monopoly of solely Tesla owned charging infrastructure, it does not make it an open standard.

Again, there is no clarity about Tesla's future supporting other auto manufacturers, nor is there any open standard for 3rd parties to build Tesla compatible chargers, as they have yet to release details of the protocol for Tesla chargers to the community as a standard that others can engineer around.

I am NOT a fan of the E-guy either. Luckily there are many senior managers at Tesla who i do respect and trust. And, it is possible the Board of Directors will do it's duty and remove the E-guy from the CEO position. It was great news this last week that JB joined the board. He is a good, smart guy, and the most important person in Tesla's success since he was CTO for 15 years. He would be a huge asset to any new CEO. There has also been other news about possible successors to the E-guy, so he may not be around long. But, I can understand how you might want to boycott Tesla for now. All I am saying is the the E-guy just might be gone soon.

I have used the Tesla superchargers and the EA chargers enough to appreciate the differences. The Tesla supercharger is way easier to use. THAT is why Tesla did not adopt CCS. : 1. The actual connector is fairly small, and simple and lightweight. In contrast to the heavy bulky CCS connector. 2. With Tesla you dont have to start up your app to charge and you dont have to read a screen on the supercharger and deal with that. So, much faster and convenient to start a Supercharger session than an EA session. You just plug the lightweight connector into your car. That is all. 3. Tesla superchargers are working 99% of the time. Cant say the same for EA.
So, if other companies, like Ford, can make a deal with Tesla and also set up their software so that using the Tesla supercharger is as easy as for a Tesla (or close) that is a big win! As someone who used to drive a Leaf, and has driven a Kia Soul EV - in addtion to Teslas and the i4, i have a decent understanding of the evolution of fast charging in US. The Tesla experience is the best fast charging we have by quite a margin.

I dont quite understand some of your statements. How do you know Tesla 'feigned' interest in other companies using their chargers. How do you know this? Were you privy to negotiations between Tesla and some other automaker? How do you know they have not released details of their superchargers to other companies?
And, what is ILJA?

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rollermonkey

· #32 · 3 d ago

J_P said:
I'm so glad I don't have to put up with this sort of crap in the UK.

A lot of Americans seem to be very anti-government but this is exactly the sort of thing that governments should regulate so that the needs of people are put before corporates. Leaving 'the market to decide' will just mean a worse EV experience for all Americans for a long time to come 😞

😂🤣😂

Oh, you're thinking of an America that hasn't existed in 30-40 years, probably more.
Corporations have beliefs and rights now, and billionaires and companies can flood politics with unlimited cash. Our government was bought ages ago.

Reactions: 4

Bluehighways

· #33 · 3 d ago (Edited)

Here's a thought; If I'm in the business of selling EV Charging, At some point I'm going to construct all of my Commercial Chargers to accommodate either connection standard. Just as most gasoline pumps do and have done for "Premium" and "Regular". Also, many years ago, "Leaded" and "UnLeaded" Gasoline Pumps had nozzles of different diameters to prevent cross fueling. Up until now Tesla has been in the business of selling Cars and selling/providing EV Charging as a support function to Car Sales. At some point Tesla will, if they haven't already done so, set up their EV Charging operation as a standalone business that has a major customer called Tesla Automotive. Just as EVgo is presently for BMW.

Reactions: 1

phchecker17

· #34 · 3 d ago

But why? Why would you want to have 2 standards, especially if one of those is proprietary while the other one is a worldwidely adopted standard.
CCS has different types for EU, US and Asia, but it's still the same standard after all. That's like saying "Yeah, instead of Apple switching to USB C, there should be lightning + USB-C as new standards, as lightning isn't that bad after all". But that's BS, as lightning is proprietary while USB-C is the standard. And yes that's exactly the kind of stuff that should actually be regulated.

I don't think CCS will be dying at all in NA, actually I don't think that Ford will switch over to NACS completely and instead add the charging port separately to CCS, as by their own numbers they would reduce charger availability by a big margin completely switching over.
But it definitely is a USP especially for those who come from Tesla and miss the Supercharger network. Currently in every US forum (reddit, here, etc.) people are saying "car XXX is really nice, but EA is not nearly as good as the Superchargers, so I might go back", so in my opionion Ford just wants to catch those people and I'd bet they're gonna pay a lot to Tesla.

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JToddK

· #35 · 3 d ago

Magicrat said:
This quote from the Ford Press Release.................
The BlueOval Charge Network is already North America’s largest public charging network with over 84,000 chargers including access to over 10,000 public DC fast-chargers.

This is BS........Ford is saying all the EA, EVgo, Chargepoint are all part of THEIR network. This is not Ford's network, its the "public" charging network. This "marketing" to the highest degree!! Ford car buyers think they are getting this huge network that's theirs............BS.

Don't forget the "North American Charging Standard" (NACS) which is now interchangeable with the term Tesla Proprietary Connector in this thread and elsewhere. I just saw a post on FB that asked about the "Self Driving" feature of the i4. Change the diction and it can have interesting implications on the discussion.

Reactions: 1

gsbaker

· #36 · 3 d ago

Wilber said:
Yes! This is a BFD. Really helps the transition to EVs by putting pressure on other EV manufacturers (like BMW) to do the same.

Don't some i4 charging ports stick? Do you want twice as many?

I think the adapter route is more practical as we wait for the standards war to settle.

Right now, I believe the scores are: Chademo rules in Japan; CCS2 rules Europe (tesla has folded), USA is straddling chademo, ccs1, and tesla, and nissan has given up on Chademo, which may be legacy soon.

It may be more cost effective to place you bets on adapters rather than buy cars with multiple systems.

Reactions: 3

Paco180

· #37 · 3 d ago

It will be Beta vs VHS for a while. Not to worry, there will be an adaptor, on top of the Tesla/Us Gov agreement back In early 2023 .

Tesla has pledged to make "at least 7,500 chargers available for all EVs by the end of 2024," Biden’s announcement said. This will include 3,500 new and existing 250 kW "superchargers" along highway corridors and 4,000 slower “destination chargers” at hotels and restaurants in urban and rural areas.

arstechnica.com

Tesla finally agrees to open its charging network to all EVs in US

Biden announced new rules today to standardize America's EV-charging experience.

arstechnica.com

Jonathan S.

· #38 · 3 d ago

^ All four thousand destination chargers are already available to us via one of the many adapters for about a hundred bucks.

As for promises from Tesla on opening up more superchargers beyond the initial test locations, let’s hope those promises pan out better than promises about the cyber truck, full self driving, etc.

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Paco180

· #39 · 3 d ago

4000 is separate from the 3500 superchargers, those are coming by end 2024

Jonathan S.

· #40 · 3 d ago

Paco180 said:
4000 is separate from the 3500 superchargers, those are coming by end 2024

Right, the 4k L2 chargers have already been open to non-Teslas ever since whenever the first after-market ~$100 adapter became available, and the 3.5k open-access superchargers will become available by the end of 2024 just like the Cybertruck was supposed to be available by 202X and FSD was supposed to be ...
(I'm all for my i4 being able to use the Supercharger network in northern New England, but I'm hardly counting on it by 2024 or any year.)

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