Interesting news from Ford/Tesla

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Wunsch

· #42 · 3 d ago

One thing to note is that NACS is not actually the same thing as what Tesla was traditionally using. It's CCS with a Tesla connector on the end. I believe the protocol the charger and car use to communicate is actually CCS. That's why Tesla can make an adaptor for existing Fords to use Superchargers. And it also means that Tesla could choose to sell that adaptor to the general public and let them use the Tesla app to charge, like they already do at MagicDock-equipped Superchargers.

It's just a question of whether Tesla thinks they can make more money that way (by going directly to consumers and selling charging), or by dealing with manufacturers one at a time like they did with Ford.

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BadgerGreg

· #43 · 3 d ago

KarlInSanDiego said:
You might not like the current state of how EA is run, but they've built that network as penance for DieselGate. The US has been in serious need of non-Tesla high powered chargers and EA has been the leader in that space. Do you really wish they didn't exist? I'm surprise people aren't worried about a Tesla only national charging network. That's a monopoly folks, and it's run by a frankly pretty messed up guy, who is no longer working to hide his messed up beliefs.

I wish that EA existed as a legitimate company that came about to serve it customers' needs (as opposed to a compliance effort). I'm not sure whether or not EA will survive, and it probably won't matter in the end because there are hungry companies out there willing to adequately service and grow the infrastructure.

If we all go over to NACS (which Tesla has already effectively open-sourced), then we'll have plenty of other options besides Tesla. EVGo, EA, ChargePoint, Kempower, etc. will all have NACS cables and we'll all have options. Since Tesla has set the standard for hardware reliability, I'm sure the other companies will emulate that and we won't have a monopoly.

In the end, we'll probably remember Electrify America as a semi-serious player in an emerging market. They'll be replaced by those who care about serving customers.

In the meantime, BMW needs to find a reliable supplier of fast charging for its current customers, and EA is not it.

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KarlInSanDiego

· #44 · 3 d ago

Wilber said:
I dont quite understand some of your statements. How do you know Tesla 'feigned' interest in other companies using their chargers. How do you know this? Were you privy to negotiations between Tesla and some other automaker? How do you know they have not released details of their superchargers to other companies?
And, what is ILJA?

Tesla has offered since 2015 to work with other companies to share their network (or any of their patents) under their terms, which have included among other things agreeing to never sue Tesla and share all their patents with Tesla. No companies have worked with Tesla until now and that is why I say feigned, as in useless offer that they know no one would agree too. It is not the same thing as creating a standard that allows all parties to agree to and share in the free use of. CCS use in Germany has come via German automaker's participation in CharIN, the Charging Interface Initiative. Here is their response to the NACS announcement.

Here's video that goes into the details that were covered around the time Tesla pretended to release the NACS "charging standard" but actually released the NACS connector specifications and recommended CCS as the charging protocol to use. Thus it's an incomplete offer, but could be a starting point. They also handwaved about Plug and Charge and Bidirectional charging. This is typical of Elon rushing in the door of a lab and shouting I need to print up our charging as a standard with all the specs so I can convince people that it's a legitimate standards manual. You have 2 days or you're dead to me.

Here are the links

Charging & Adapter Product Guides

Find product documentation for mobile connectors, wall connectors and other Tesla charging products.

www.tesla.com

IIJA= Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act = a massive wad of government spending including $7.5 billion to build out the first-ever national network of EV chargers in the United States

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KarlInSanDiego

· #45 · 3 d ago

BadgerGreg said:
Since Tesla has set the standard for hardware reliability, I'm sure the other companies will emulate that and we won't have a monopoly.

I'm not sure why you say this, because Tesla is not nationalizing it's network. It's attempting to pull customers to it to pay for the immense cost of producing it. Charging at a Supercharger is no discounted affair. There is no indication that Tesla is producing hardware for other companies to host. So if you think Tesla is the only one who's any good at building reliable Superchargers (they're not), this announcement only reinforces that it could result in an eventual monopoly if other manufacturers fold and say we'll just use Tesla's established network instead of committing to the CCS charging connector standard.

BTW, none of these charging offerings are building renewable resources to match the tremendous localized load they place on the network, the way Tesla originally promised to. EVGo and Tesla now claim to cover all their power with Renewable Energy Credits and hopefully those who read about this can give examples of others who at least do that, but that is far from the same as investing in new local renewable power on a 1-to-1 basis that retires coal and natural gas plants and replaces them with wind, solar, and storage.

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J_P

· #46 · 3 d ago

KarlInSanDiego said:
BTW, none of these charging offerings are building renewable resources to match the tremendous localized load they place on the network, the way Tesla originally promised to. EVGo and Tesla now claim to cover all their power with Renewable Energy Credits and hopefully those who read about this can give examples of others who at least do that, but that is far from the same as investing in new local renewable power on a 1-to-1 basis that retires coal and natural gas plants and replaces them with wind, solar, and storage.

I would go further than that. A lot of these schemes (we call them carbon credits) have now been shown to be almost worthless in their actual carbon reduction. Basically fraudulent.

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BadgerGreg

· #47 · 3 d ago

KarlInSanDiego said:
I'm not sure why you say this, because Tesla is not nationalizing it's network. It's attempting to pull customers to it to pay for the immense cost of producing it. Charging at a Supercharger is no discounted affair. There is no indication that Tesla is producing hardware for other companies to host. So if you think Tesla is the only one who's any good at building reliable Superchargers (they're not), this announcement only reinforces that it could result in an eventual monopoly if other manufacturers fold and say we'll just use Tesla's established network instead of committing to the CCS charging connector standard.

BTW, none of these charging offerings are building renewable resources to match the tremendous localized load they place on the network, the way Tesla originally promised to. EVGo and Tesla now claim to cover all their power with Renewable Energy Credits and hopefully those who read about this can give examples of others who at least do that, but that is far from the same as investing in new local renewable power on a 1-to-1 basis that retires coal and natural gas plants and replaces them with wind, solar, and storage.

I didn’t imply that Tesla was nationalizing its network. But, it is objectively the best and most reliable charging network in the US and I strongly believe they are miles ahead of any other DCFC company. Fortunately, others will catch up. I don’t see all the other companies folding (although some will).

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gsbaker

· #48 · 3 d ago

BadgerGreg said:
Bold (and winning) move by Ford. Of the legacy OEMs in the US, Ford has the greatest gravitational pull because of their EV production levels and reputation. I think this is the beginning of the end for CCS in the US.

Also, if this means the proliferation of Tesla SC stations and the end of Electrify America, we'll all be better off.

I hope BMW has the brains to follow in Ford's footsteps.

I would not feel better off without any CCS charging stations, and having to hope for an expensive retrofit to my i4.

A practical adapter tesla to ccs, as tesla has developed is very helpful. In addition, I think that the combined rate of ccs installation by many parties is already on the verge of outpacing tesla installations.

Let us look forward to a world where there will be room for both standards to succeed.

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mattyg

· #49 · 3 d ago

What's frustrating about this is that it gives Tesla a powerful argument that its "standard" and network are open, when that just isn't true. But people will believe it nonetheless, just look at this thread. This isn't making their network open and non-proprietary, it's just letting Ford specifically into the walled garden. If Apple release iMessage for Android tomorrow, but only for Google Pixel phones could actually have an iMessage conversation with iPhones, would we call iMessage an open standard? I mean, technically Samsung and others could use Apple's iMessage code to build their own iMessage apps so that non-Pixel Android phones could have an iMessage conversation between themselves, so that means it's totally open right?

Open means that someone could release a Tesla-to-CCS adapter tomorrow and all of us could run to a supercharger and use it. That wasn't the case a week ago, and it's still not the case today. The hardware standard being open is meaningless, that isn't what people care about. Nobody (well, maybe a few people) is clamoring for Tesla's plug. They are clamoring for the supercharger network. And that remains closed. I'd be shocked now if even the meager plans to open it up continue, and I'd probably drop dead of shock if they actually expanded those meager plans instead of saying they no longer feel the need to.

What this does do, though, is introduce more uncertainty. Are charging networks going to continue expanding? If an entire make is now removed from using CCS chargers, does the math still add up to even add them? Is the math there to make any money trying to build a non-supercharger tesla-plug network? Because it's still just Tesla and, soon, Ford that will even have that plug, so you'd be walling yourself off from a big chunk of the market either way, and how likely are Tesla owners going to be to even use a non-supercharger network? Why would they? So do you now add a CCS plug and a Tesla plug to your chargers? How much cost and complexity does that add, and what about chademo? Do you still need it and so do you now need three plugs?

This isn't good for EV adoption. If you care about that, and aren't just a tesla cheerleader or tesla investor who mainly cares about Tesla adoption, you shouldn't find this to be good news. This almost certainly means slowed expansion of the CCS network as the plug standard fragments even more than it already is and the private companies who we need to get in the game to get enough chargers out there pull back from the table because the business case for building them is a hell of a lot hazier than it was before, which already wasn't fantastic.

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Wunsch

· #50 · 3 d ago

Tesla plugs public charging gap for Ford with Supercharger access

Tesla and Ford are now charging partners thanks to a new Supercharger deal and Ford's move to adopt Tesla's charging port in all future EVs

electricautonomy.ca

This Canadian article has one piece of good news in it: Tesla is still moving ahead with plans to open up their Supercharger network to everybody (not just Ford). However, the timeline they're talking about is very slow, to the point that by the time they're done, I don't know if anybody will even care.

The article does also have a bit more detail on the Ford arrangement than I've seen other places.

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Drandall

· #51 · 3 d ago

mattyg said:
This isn't good for EV adoption. If you care about that, and aren't just a tesla cheerleader or tesla investor who mainly cares about Tesla adoption, you shouldn't find this to be good news. This almost certainly means slowed expansion of the CCS network as the plug standard fragments even more than it already is and the private companies who we need to get in the game to get enough chargers out there pull back from the table because the business case for building them is a hell of a lot hazier than it was before, which already wasn't fantastic.

100% This! The path to EV adoption sure didn't need to get murkier. All this does is open the door to more FUD.....

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Variable430

· #52 · 3 d ago

phchecker17 said:
But why? Why would you want to have 2 standards, especially if one of those is proprietary while the other one is a worldwidely adopted standard.
CCS has different types for EU, US and Asia, but it's still the same standard after all. That's like saying "Yeah, instead of Apple switching to USB C, there should be lightning + USB-C as new standards, as lightning isn't that bad after all". But that's BS, as lightning is proprietary while USB-C is the standard. And yes that's exactly the kind of stuff that should actually be regulated.

I don't think CCS will be dying at all in NA, actually I don't think that Ford will switch over to NACS completely and instead add the charging port separately to CCS, as by their own numbers they would reduce charger availability by a big margin completely switching over.
But it definitely is a USP especially for those who come from Tesla and miss the Supercharger network. Currently in every US forum (reddit, here, etc.) people are saying "car XXX is really nice, but EA is not nearly as good as the Superchargers, so I might go back", so in my opionion Ford just wants to catch those people and I'd bet they're gonna pay a lot to Tesla.

It’s early days in this space. Ultimately the standard for charging will be determined by a consortium of Chinese, European, and American OEMs. They will not allow Tesla to determine the standard. this discussion is viewing the current state of the market as static when we know over time Tesla’s market share will plummet and come back in line with other manufacturers. The only market Tesla is likely to dominate is a Uber/taxi market which will of itself make the brand less desirable as a personal vehicle.

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BadgerGreg

· #53 · 3 d ago

gsbaker said:
I would not feel better off without any CCS charging stations, and having to hope for an expensive retrofit to my i4.

A practical adapter tesla to ccs, as tesla has developed is very helpful. In addition, I think that the combined rate of ccs installation by many parties is already on the verge of outpacing tesla installations.

Let us look forward to a world where there will be room for both standards to succeed.

Regardless of which standard succeeds, I just hope we have more reliability when we plug in. As a CCS owner/user for over two years now, I've seen very little progress on the expansion of the CCS network, while the Tesla network has exploded. I am losing hope that CCS will be long-term solution, but I don't care as long as I have an adapter and a network owner who will let me pay for the electrons.

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Magicrat

· #54 · 3 d ago

BadgerGreg said:
Regardless of which standard succeeds, I just hope we have more reliability when we plug in. As a CCS owner/user for over two years now, I've seen very little progress on the expansion of the CCS network, while the Tesla network has exploded. I am losing hope that CCS will be long-term solution, but I don't care as long as I have an adapter and a network owner who will let me pay for the electrons.

The key is going to be an adapter that Elon will allow on his network........you notice I said "his" network. Until there is a adapter that works, this is not a public network. If another big player joins (GM, Stellantis, Toyota, etc.) CCS might go the way of Betamax........what are the Germans (BMW, Audi, Mercedes/Benz, VW) going to do now????

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Wilber

· #55 · 2 d ago

KarlInSanDiego said:
Tesla has offered since 2015 to work with other companies to share their network (or any of their patents) under their terms, which have included among other things agreeing to never sue Tesla and share all their patents with Tesla. No companies have worked with Tesla until now and that is why I say feigned, as in useless offer that they know no one would agree too. It is not the same thing as creating a standard that allows all parties to agree to and share in the free use of. CCS use in Germany has come via German automaker's participation in CharIN, the Charging Interface Initiative. Here is their response to the NACS announcement.

Here's video that goes into the details that were covered around the time Tesla pretended to release the NACS "charging standard" but actually released the NACS connector specifications and recommended CCS as the charging protocol to use. Thus it's an incomplete offer, but could be a starting point. They also handwaved about Plug and Charge and Bidirectional charging. This is typical of Elon rushing in the door of a lab and shouting I need to print up our charging as a standard with all the specs so I can convince people that it's a legitimate standards manual. You have 2 days or you're dead to me.

Here are the links

Charging & Adapter Product Guides

Find product documentation for mobile connectors, wall connectors and other Tesla charging products.

www.tesla.com

IIJA= Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act = a massive wad of government spending including $7.5 billion to build out the first-ever national network of EV chargers in the United States

Thanks for all that info. First, on CharIN - i had never heard of it before. Their 'About' paragraphs are fairly vague and dont include a history of creation of the organization and by whom. There is no entry in Wikipedia for CharIN. So, for now, i have to assume it is a small organization founded by a couple people and just sought some kind of buy in from legacy automakers. probably for no or little cost or obligation from those automakers..

Transport Evolved i am familiar with. And they usually know what they are talking about. she correctly quotes that awkward Tesla announcement from years back which includes "All Our Patent" but she does not say that other automakers need to share "all" their patents. I suspect is it just patents relating to charging. Of course, Tesla would need to those to ensure the interface works well. You say Tesla did NOT release a 'standard' but rather just a connector. I disagree, When companies share charging patents that certainly sounds more than just a 'connector' but rather a 'standard'.

OK, i misread IIJA and ILJA. thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Today Munro Live released a video on the two approaches, that seems pretty useful.

In summary, there are so many bureaucracies involved in the topic that i am burnt out on it for now. Like you say, we will just wait to see how things actually develop.

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rollermonkey

· #56 · 2 d ago

Wilber said:
I just checked the Tesla website, the price for a basic Model 3 is $40,240 and it qualifies for a $3750 tax credit, so the price for most folks for the basic car is about $36,500. (plus tax and reg) And, there is much talk about an even cheaper car "Model 2" in development. Should hear more about that later this year. The fact is that in recent months Tesla has substantally reduced the price of Model 3 and Model Y and that clearly helps more folks convert to

Last year, Model 3 were up in the 55-57k range. The price drops are due to cratering demand, not any altruistic or benevolent motivations.

Model 2 eh? If they have started talking about that recently, then maybe we’ll see an opportunity to purchase it in 2027 or 2028.
I mean, companies are barely able to buy the Semi which was announced in 2016 and unveiled 2017. More are waiting to be able to buy the Cybertruk, unveiled November 2019. Or buy the Roadster, first promised for 2014 and unveiled November 2017 with Semi.

I’m reminded of a quote from the late, great, Douglas Adams: “I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound that they make as they go by.”

Please pardon me while I don’t hold my breath while waiting for the release of a Tesla Model2.

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gsbaker

· #57 · 2 d ago (Edited)

BadgerGreg said:
Regardless of which standard succeeds, I just hope we have more reliability when we plug in. As a CCS owner/user for over two years now, I've seen very little progress on the expansion of the CCS network, while the Tesla network has exploded. I am losing hope that CCS will be long-term solution, but I don't care as long as I have an adapter and a network owner who will let me pay for the electrons.

I ask whether the Betamax paradigm is the most apt, when we also see before us the Apple-Android and PC-Apple situations as examples of apparantly stable two-standard markets.

I see several reasons for the differences:

- video players were single-function devices, so once you selected your source of tapes there was no more changing; computers and automobiles are far more complex and versatile devices, with more issues to consider than simply convenience of charging

- the current charging "crisis" is something new; there are already more L2 chargers than L3s, and these for over 10 years have served a relatively small market of short range evs used only for commuting. That is why ccs sought to absorb the j1772 standard; it is tesla that changed the whole meaning of evs by popularizing the long-range ev while providing the solution to long-range travel (kudos to them); Tesla is well-established while the rest of the world is devoting vast resources to catch up; in contrast, jvc followed sony into a new thin market and was able to dominate before either were fully established.

- vcr systems did not have safe markets to secure their positions; Europe is a protected market for ccs in which Tesla participates with ccs cars; they won't in any forseeable future mandate a total conversion of ccs to tesla adaptors or NACS (not actually current standard); meanwhile tesla has established a secure American market, through convenience of charging facilities; so tesla may try to push ccs out of the US, but they still won't be a world standard;

- there was no adapter between vcr systems; in contrast, both tesla and now ford are able to produce adapters for tesla plugs; given the many other reasons to choose BMW or other European imports over tesla, ford, or even gm, if they want to join the cabal, people will still have the option to buy adapters if it becomes necessary.

- people in the US who buy ccs cars today have already worked through the charging issues; they include early adopters or quick studies, who have gotten for themselves home chargers, or located networks of public chargers that work for them; since most driving is anyway local these folks can either make accommodations for road trips or wait for the eventual improvement of charging networks; tesla and ford will remain attractive to a mass market of people who want decently good cars that are easy to charge

- there are every day more announcements of companies who will host fast chargers: including Shell, BP, Pilot, 7-11, Starbucks; DCFCs already outnumber SCs and the deficit in maintenance with only improve as the networks fill in; the bigger the network the more cost effective it will be to support a maintenance infrastructure; we should expect to see third party companies to service multiple sponsors of charging stations; if Chargepoint and Siemans build the original units for multiple parties, they will likely offer maintenance contracts as well

Well after this long monologue, my point is we will likely see a stable two-standard market, so enjoy your i4s!

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Wilber

· #58 · 2 d ago

rollermonkey said:
Last year, Model 3 were up in the 55-57k range. The price drops are due to cratering demand, not any altruistic or benevolent motivations.

Model 2 eh? If they have started talking about that recently, then maybe we’ll see an opportunity to purchase it in 2027 or 2028.
I mean, companies are barely able to buy the Semi which was announced in 2016 and unveiled 2017. More are waiting to be able to buy the Cybertruk, unveiled November 2019. Or buy the Roadster, first promised for 2014 and unveiled November 2017 with Semi.

I’m reminded of a quote from the late, great, Douglas Adams: “I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound that they make as they go by.”

Please pardon me while I don’t hold my breath while waiting for the release of a Tesla Model2.

Sorry, it seems you are playing fast and loose with facts as far as the price is concerned. My research shows thatthat the highest price the base Model 3 ever reached was $47k. If you have a link to an article showing a higher base price, please share. But, i do agree with you that price reductions in the last 6 months or so are due to reduced demand. Largely due to the E-guy's controvesrsal public statements. .

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LyriCeZ

· #59 · 2 d ago

rollermonkey said:
Last year, Model 3 were up in the 55-57k range. The price drops are due to cratering demand, not any altruistic or benevolent motivations.

Model 2 eh? If they have started talking about that recently, then maybe we’ll see an opportunity to purchase it in 2027 or 2028.
I mean, companies are barely able to buy the Semi which was announced in 2016 and unveiled 2017. More are waiting to be able to buy the Cybertruk, unveiled November 2019. Or buy the Roadster, first promised for 2014 and unveiled November 2017 with Semi.

I’m reminded of a quote from the late, great, Douglas Adams: “I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound that they make as they go by.”

Please pardon me while I don’t hold my breath while waiting for the release of a Tesla Model2.

Are you sure about that? The price is back to pre-covid/used car market price increases. I know we like to hate Tesla here, but they have the best-selling vehicle of 2023 Q1 worldwide (Model Y) and the Model 3 is at number 8 worldwide.

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Paco180

· #60 · 2 d ago

Tesla‘s don’t have the quality of build, or the customer service of BMW for example. But their electric platform, and software, with unlimited updates, is the reason why everyone is buying. If it wasn’t for Tesla , we will not be here at this forum today.

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