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By all means file. Just don’t count on it. If you get it, it’s a gift. Best insurance policy is still to have a 2022 VIN. (Parenthetically, going up against the IRS will cost you a lot more than $7500.)
How is "get a 2022 VIN" a strategy? I'll get a VIN when my car goes into production. I have no control over that. What do you suggest as a strategy for "getting a 2022 VIN"?
 

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If you're unlucky, the IRS may decide you committed fraud. That'll cost you a lot more than $7,500 + penalties + interest.
Fraud legal definition of fraud (thefreedictionary.com)
The legal definition for fraud: A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

I'm making no false representations of fact by either words or by conduct.
I'm making no false or misleading allegations.
I'm concealing no information that should have been disclosed.
I have no intent to deceive.

How would this qualify as fraud?
 

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Fraud legal definition of fraud (thefreedictionary.com)
The legal definition for fraud: A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

I'm making no false representations of fact by either words or by conduct.
I'm making no false or misleading allegations.
I'm concealing no information that should have been disclosed.
I have no intent to deceive.

How would this qualify as fraud?
If the IRS denies your claim of the credit, then--you know what, go head. Not my problem. If you want to consider this a victory, fine, I bow to your superior knowledge and reasoning. Surely the IRS will do likewise.
 

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There are a lot of claims here, without any supporting references or documentation:
  • A VIN is required to get a sales contract (despite the fact I have a sales contract)
  • Possession of the car is required by the dealer to provide a sales contract (despite the fact I have a sales contract)
  • Its a violation of CVC if a California dealer to take a deposit
  • The IRS will charge you with fraud if you follow the instructions in the transition rule of the Inflation Reduction Act
If you have references, evidence or documentation supporting any of those claims, I would love to read them. Otherwise I will consider those opinions to have been rectally extracted.

All I'm doing here is providing actual references and documentation to requirements as described by the transition rule of the Inflation Reduction Act. The thread is asking for a strategy, and I've mapped out the instructions (with the included guidance to have your plan reviewed by your CPA), on how to comport with the requirements of the transition rule of the Inflation Reduction Act.

When I can meet with my CPA, I'll report back with his feedback. (I am not a lawyer and my advice should not be considered as legal advice)
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
There are a lot of claims here, without any supporting references or documentation:
  • A VIN is required to get a sales contract (despite the fact I have a sales contract)
  • Possession of the car is required by the dealer to provide a sales contract (despite the fact I have a sales contract)
  • Its a violation of CVC if a California dealer to take a deposit
  • The IRS will charge you with fraud if you follow the instructions in the transition rule of the Inflation Reduction Act
If you have references, evidence or documentation supporting any of those claims, I would love to read them. Otherwise I will consider those opinions to have been rectally extracted.

All I'm doing here is providing actual references and documentation to requirements as described by the transition rule of the Inflation Reduction Act. The thread is asking for a strategy, and I've mapped out the instructions (with the included guidance to have your plan reviewed by your CPA), on how to comport with the requirements of the transition rule of the Inflation Reduction Act.

When I can meet with my CPA, I'll report back with his feedback. (I am not a lawyer and my advice should not be considered as legal advice)
Chuck, do appreciate you insights. I am thinking about pursuing the same strategy albeit I have an e40 on order (Build week 36), so i hoping for a VIN. Let's see how the legislation plays out over the next few days in the senate. There was some news that the Michigan Senators (both Democrats) are not supportive of the EV portions of the bill as proposed by Schumer & Manchin (haven't heard that Sinema has a view on EVs). Either way, do let us know what counsel your CPA has.
 

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Chuck, I think you have a pretty solid case. The law wording needs to be changed to clarify what constitutes an acceptable "contract", since pre-ordered cars are not usually sold that way. Your course of action is the best path a good-faith person could take, and it's far from being considered "fraud". Worst case scenario, the rebate gets denied and you have to return the funds + some $$ in interest, but even then you should appeal (the IRS has an independent office of appeals) and argue that the law is ambiguous. It's definitely worth "rolling the dice", as others put it.
 

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E-drive 40 Dravid grey/cognac Msports package with all options.
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My strategy was to order an i4-e40 3 weeks ago, They told me about 6 months wait… so I changed my strategy to cut in line when opportunity. I know chances are slim, but I got an email that a car was canceled by a customer who ordered last year, and now in a few days I will take delivery. This $67k. Has all the options I wanted that the MY23 doesn’t have any longer, and the color wasn’t first choice (dravid grey) but for $7500 off? yeah that’s good enough. Since this supposed tax benefit would cap off at $55.000 or something, it would limit the bmw i4-e40, from the tax incentives, not?
 

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There are a lot of claims here, without any supporting references or documentation:
  • A VIN is required to get a sales contract (despite the fact I have a sales contract)
  • Possession of the car is required by the dealer to provide a sales contract (despite the fact I have a sales contract)
  • Its a violation of CVC if a California dealer to take a deposit
  • The IRS will charge you with fraud if you follow the instructions in the transition rule of the Inflation Reduction Act
If you have references, evidence or documentation supporting any of those claims, I would love to read them. Otherwise I will consider those opinions to have been rectally extracted.

All I'm doing here is providing actual references and documentation to requirements as described by the transition rule of the Inflation Reduction Act. The thread is asking for a strategy, and I've mapped out the instructions (with the included guidance to have your plan reviewed by your CPA), on how to comport with the requirements of the transition rule of the Inflation Reduction Act.

When I can meet with my CPA, I'll report back with his feedback. (I am not a lawyer and my advice should not be considered as legal advice)
CVC defines a dealer broker as an intermediary that does not have ownership of a vehicle and is working to negotiate a purchase.

Until the dealer has possession or owns the vehicle (Status 150; VIN issued) they are acting as a broker.

CVC 11736 does not allow a broker to have a contract that cannot be canceled by the buyer up to an including delivery of the car. There are other stipulations, but it really can't be a binding agreement to purchase in "California" unless the dealer has the car or let's say VIN.

Fisker and other direct to consumer companies can get around this because they are not acting as brokers because they actually own the inventory during production and delivery. They are building a car specifically for you.

A dealer doesn't technically have a car to sell until it is produced. That's why a deposit must be refundable in California at least until BMW issues a VIN. There is some grey area between VIN assigned and dealership delivery. I'm sure they can argue at VIN issue they have a specialized car and can hang on to the deposit.

My dealer will not write a binding contract. I asked this morning.


I'm not a lawyer.

Waiting for my M50......
 
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Chuck, I think you have a pretty solid case. The law wording needs to be changed to clarify what constitutes an acceptable "contract", since pre-ordered cars are not usually sold that way. Your course of action is the best path a good-faith person could take, and it's far from being considered "fraud". Worst case scenario, the rebate gets denied and you have to return the funds + some $$ in interest, but even then you should appeal (the IRS has an independent office of appeals) and argue that the law is ambiguous. It's definitely worth "rolling the dice", as others put it.
This would be my approach.
I have a pre-order deposit from June 1, 2021.
I have a production number and VIR from Dec 2021.
I also have a term sheet that details final price and terms. I have applied for credit and been approved.
California doesn't allow dealer to write binding contracts for cars they don't have. So I would assume that if I and the dealer comply with California law and the intent to purchase exists that I will be fine. I'll appeal if it comes to that.

I'm praying they get my car made and delivered by Dec 31.

Waiting for my M50......
 

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Ok fair. I would also add that if you want the tax credit, push your CA to sign a sales contract that conforms to the definition of a legally binding contract now, before the Inflation Reduction Act is enacted. Whether or not the IRS considers that a valid contract, if you don't have what is required by the transition rule, you will not be able to even apply for the credit.
that's my point. The dealer can't/won't do a contract for a car they don't have. BMW also made it clear they won't until at least a VIN exists. We are not the ones acting irrationally. You are.
 

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that's my point. The dealer can't/won't do a contract for a car they don't have. BMW also made it clear they won't until at least a VIN exists. We are not the ones acting irrationally. You are.
Thats my point. My dealer did a contract for a car they don't have. The thing you claim can't exist, is literally already in my hand. They do contracts for all the orders they take. A sales contract with a non-refundable deposit clause is... you guessed it... a legally binding contract to purchase. (I do not live in CA)
 

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Thats my point. My dealer did a contract for a car they don't have. The thing you claim can't exist, is literally already in my hand. They do contracts for all the orders they take. A sales contract with a non-refundable deposit clause is... you guessed it... a legally binding contract to purchase. (I do not live in CA)
I also asked for one of those since I got my VIN today. The salesman I spoke to sounded unsure whether that is doable. Which I totally understand. He was like, why would you want that? After my explanation, he told me he would call me back after he spoke to his sales director. Haven't heard anything back yet. Well... At least I tried. As much as I want to do everything to get that credit, the last thing I want is ...

Building Fixture Wood Window Door
 

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CVC defines a dealer broker as an intermediary that does not have ownership of a vehicle and is working to negotiate a purchase.

Until the dealer has possession or owns the vehicle (Status 150; VIN issued) they are acting as a broker.

CVC 11736 does not allow a broker to have a contract that cannot be canceled by the buyer up to an including delivery of the car. There are other stipulations, but it really can't be a binding agreement to purchase in "California" unless the dealer has the car or let's say VIN.

Fisker and other direct to consumer companies can get around this because they are not acting as brokers because they actually own the inventory during production and delivery. They are building a car specifically for you.

A dealer doesn't technically have a car to sell until it is produced. That's why a deposit must be refundable in California at least until BMW issues a VIN. There is some grey area between VIN assigned and dealership delivery. I'm sure they can argue at VIN issue they have a specialized car and can hang on to the deposit.

My dealer will not write a binding contract. I asked this morning.


I'm not a lawyer.

Waiting for my M50......
Thanks Techwhiz1 for the info.

California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 11736 | FindLaw

Reading the code, (as a non-lawyer) it implies that a broker can charge a brokerage fee that does not need to be returned if the consumer cancels the purchase.
The broker must refund "upon demand, any money paid by a consumer, including any brokerage fee, under any of the following circumstances:"

(1) When the final price of the brokered vehicle exceeds the purchase price listed in the brokering agreement.
(2) When the vehicle delivered is not as described in the brokering agreement.
(3) When the brokering agreement expires prior to the customer being presented with a purchase agreement from a selling dealer arranged through the brokering dealer that contains a purchase price at or below the price listed in the brokering agreement.

But if the consumer cancels the purchase before signing the purchase agreement with a selling dealer, the broker must refund: "any purchase money, including purchase deposits, upon demand by a consumer" (brokerage fee is not listed. I am assuming that the brokerage fee is not purchase money, since it does not go towards the purchase of the vehicle)

This broker contract "consideration" is an exchange of a brokerage fee for the option to purchase a vehicle, which to my layman's understanding, has the required components of a legally binding contract. I'm not sure if it would count as a legally binding contract to purchase, since you are not contractually bound to complete the purchase, but you are legally bound to pay the brokerage fee for the option to purchase.

Much less clear cut, and I would definitely run that by a CPA. It's unfortunate that your dealer is unwilling to act as a broker. It seems like you could just sign a brokerage contract with a $10 brokerage fee to have a binding contract in your possession. Here is an example of a california broker agreement BROKERAGREEMENT.pdf (squarespace.com)
 

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Thanks Techwhiz1 for the info.

California Code, Vehicle Code - VEH § 11736 | FindLaw

Reading the code, (as a non-lawyer) it implies that a broker can charge a brokerage fee that does not need to be returned if the consumer cancels the purchase.

Snip

But if the consumer cancels the purchase before signing the purchase agreement with a selling dealer, the broker must refund: "any purchase money, including purchase deposits, upon demand by a consumer" (brokerage fee is not listed. I am assuming that the brokerage fee is not purchase money, since it does not go towards the purchase of the vehicle)
Read the clause I left.
There is no purchase agreement signed so all monies are refundable and a consumer can cancel up to the point until there is a signed purchase contract.

A customer can claim a failed visual inspection.
It's hard to keep that money in CA without a signed agreement.

But it doesn't really matter. My dealer said absolutely not. I'm in California. Customers in other places can get the binding contract because laws vary from state to state.

Waiting for my M50......
 

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Read the clause I left.
There is no purchase agreement signed so all monies are refundable and a consumer can cancel up to the point until there is a signed purchase contract.
Yeah I read the clause. It does not state that the brokerage fee is refundable, as long as the car is provided as described by the brokerage agreement. Thats the binding part.

But you're right that the point is moot if your dealer is unwilling to assist you in this effort. Sorry about that.
 

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Thats my point. My dealer did a contract for a car they don't have. The thing you claim can't exist, is literally already in my hand. They do contracts for all the orders they take. A sales contract with a non-refundable deposit clause is... you guessed it... a legally binding contract to purchase. (I do not live in CA)
yes and it doesn't matter what your dealer did for you because mine won't and neither will BMW USA. Also it's unclear if that really does count, we won't know until next year. So stop going off on everyone.
 

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I also asked for one of those since I got my VIN today. The salesman I spoke to sounded unsure whether that is doable. Which I totally understand. He was like, why would you want that? After my explanation, he told me he would call me back after he spoke to his sales director. Haven't heard anything back yet. Well... At least I tried. As much as I want to do everything to get that credit, the last thing I want is ...
meh, pro-rated interest on $7500 of unpaid taxes will probably be less than I'll have to pay my CPA to review my documents.
 

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meh, pro-rated interest on $7500 of unpaid taxes will probably be less than I'll have to pay my CPA to review my documents.
Most of your reasons are valid and the purchase agreement might count as a binding contract except when the VIN is missing, there is no specific product that is being sold. Just a generic model whose prices can change and the “binding contract” is no longer binding coz now all the numbers, fees have changed. Thats the reason people are looking for the VIN. It provides the seller the specific goods that they r selling to u and the price is now locked and they can just fill out everything in them. You could try ur luck without it but looking from the outside, the contract you have promises u an “I owe you” but not the actual car that u are buying even if the price reflects it becoz if urs gets moved into 2024 model, the MSRP changes and all those numbers will be changed again. Also if u r in CA, their law states ”there can be no blanks to be filled in later” in which case, the VIN and the odometer reading will be blank and hence invalid contract. U can get away without the odometer reading but without a VIN thats A hard sell. Just my 2 cents.
 
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I also asked for one of those since I got my VIN today. The salesman I spoke to sounded unsure whether that is doable. Which I totally understand. He was like, why would you want that? After my explanation, he told me he would call me back after he spoke to his sales director. Haven't heard anything back yet. Well... At least I tried. As much as I want to do everything to get that credit, the last thing I want is ...

View attachment 13548
i think you should ask for the purchase contract irrespective of the credit esp if you have a VIN. That way you can make sure there r no added “fees” and mkt adj tacked on when u buy the car and then u r not in any position to negotiate except to walk away or pony up.
 
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