[Matty106]

After a recent discussion that I didn't start was deleted on this forum, I thought I would try again to have a discussion on why I believe that Wireless Fobs for cars are not secure. Just because the manufacturer has stopped the fob from being active after a short while when stationary does not mean you are impervious to attack.

If you are in a public car park, then someone can scan your fob when you are parking or as you are leaving your car. The same applies to when you arrive home, chap walks past with his dog and a scanner as you exit the car. Anything Wireless is vulnerable and it will forever be a cat-and-mouse game between the car manufacturers and the hackers/thieves.

Just wondering how many people on this forum are concerned about their Wireless Keys being hacked and so didn't opt for Comfort Access purely based on the security - Like me! Or do you all love having a faraday bag and wearing it like a fashion accessory?

 

[ssh]

This is very environmentally specific. The transmission distance is relatively short, so the receiver would have to be physically near enough that, for me in the situations in which I find myself, I would know they were present. If I lived in a more congested area (or visited one often), I would be more likely to carry a faraday bag (like @gsbaker and others have done).

 

[thev]

I didn't have enough in my leasing budget for fancy features like Comfort Access, so I take comfort in the fact that my keyfob is more secure.

However, is it possible that an attacker would be able to catch and replicate the signal of the keyfob when I press the button to lock/vulnerable the car? Or is only the comfort access keyfob vulnerable?

Would it be safer to only unlock the car via the phone app?

 

[trivalent]

chap walks past with his dog and a scanner as you exit the car

It's the dog. It may look cute, but keep an eye on that dog!

After I reported that now-deleted spam thread (thank you, mods), I did some quick research into "man in the middle" key fob attacks. I hadn't considered them since they first appeared some years ago, after which automakers improved their security designs enough to matter.

Searching from a US IP address for English language results, conspicuous to me was that the great majority of the results, including the top hits, were from the UK. Thus I assume that in the UK this is either a persistent problem or that there is widespread concern about it there for any reason.

Whether or not that is true, I further considered that I never either fell prey to such an attack nor could think of ever personally knowing someone who did. With that, I thought that therefore my odds of being attacked were either low, or were high enough to be of concern since one's luck can't hold forever.

Pending raising this to my friends in the car business, I concluded that it was worth investing a modest amount of money and of change in my habits as a hedge against the worst case. A successful attack might happen once in a blue moon; but when it does, your car will be gone.

I chose a SLNT blocker bag to try: [maker] [seller]

 

[trivalent]

Would it be safer to only unlock the car via the phone app?

Thanks for mentioning this. As I thought about these attacks, I did assume that using an NFC key for a vehicle would have the same benefit of greater security that using an NFC payment method rather than a card has.

 

[A_Camera]

After a recent discussion that I didn't start was deleted on this forum, I thought I would try again to have a discussion on why I believe that Wireless Fobs for cars are not secure. Just because the manufacturer has stopped the fob from being active after a short while when stationary does not mean you are impervious to attack.

If you are in a public car park, then someone can scan your fob when you are parking or as you are leaving your car. The same applies to when you arrive home, chap walks past with his dog and a scanner as you exit the car. Anything Wireless is vulnerable and it will forever be a cat-and-mouse game between the car manufacturers and the hackers/thieves.

Just wondering how many people on this forum are concerned about their Wireless Keys being hacked and so didn't opt for Comfort Access purely based on the security - Like me! Or do you all love having a faraday bag and wearing it like a fashion accessory?

I am zero worried about this. I think that the problem is severely exaggerated by some people. I have comfort access in my present cars and will have even in the future. Not worried at all about it.

 

[ssh]

Thanks for mentioning this. As I thought about these attacks, I did assume that using an NFC key for a vehicle would have the same benefit of greater security that using an NFC payment method rather than a card has.

Absolutely. NFC is very short distance. Short enough that it can't be captured.

 

[Techwhiz1]

I would be worried if I didn't love in my current house.

It would be near impossible for anyone to scan my key since my house is gated and nearly 100ft fromy nearest neighbor.

Also the probability of running into a person that would randomly be waiting to scan my key is pretty low.

Also insurance.

Tanzanite over tartufo full individual leather with carbon trim.

 

[Matty106]

Coming from London I am very aware that this type of hack is going on all the time. I appreciate that if I lived in a rural area then its not so much of a concern, but in a UK City centre it unfortunately is.

I agree that NFC via a phone is more secure than a fob, but still open to attack.

For some reason, car manufacturers were able to produce a secure wireless system for arming and disarming cars, but with wireless operation to start a car, they have failed.

Glad we are having an open discussion about this and appreciate everyones input.

 

[ssh]

I agree that NFC via a phone is more secure than a fob, but still open to attack.

What's the attack vector from your perspective? I think the attacker would have to be literally on top of the phone to read this.

 

[Chuck]

20200723_Relay-Attack-applied-to-NFC-Virtual-Car-Keys.pdf (asrg.io)

Attack Feasibility:

• The “Mole” device needs to be in proximity of the victim device (< 4cm).
• The “Proxy” device needs to be in proximity of the victim car (< 4cm).
• 2 challenges need to be relayed successfully to open and start the car

Recent Tesla attacks appear to be something totally bone-headed. When you use your key to unlock a tesla, they had a 130 second window to start the car without a 2nd key challenge. The boneheaded part, is during that 130 second window, they also allowed enrollment of new keys So you wait next to a tesla for the owner to unlock it, and then you immediately enroll your own key to use on another day?

 

[ssh]

That's my point... less than 4cm from me when the key is available on my phone? No one gets that close to me... ever!

 

[Nigelz]

Relay attacks in the UK are rife, I see a report once a week about stolen cars in the local area. Even today there was a report of a Merc coupe being stolen a few roads away.

The i4 key does go to sleep (which I've tested), so should protect against relay attacks but not from scanning by people near you in car parks etc. When I got the car I started using the key card, but had a few instances of it not unlocking (though it would always allow start). I would use my phone, if only digital key worked on a Samsung S20.

 

[Matty106]

That's my point... less than 4cm from me when the key is available on my phone? No one gets that close to me... ever!

Your point is specific to your situation and to others that match it. Someone could easily do this in the UK and I am sure wireless attacks will spread across the pond at some stage. Admittedly, if you live on Yellowstone ranch you will be safe, but in city centres you need to be mindful that you may lose your car to theft if you have wireless access. 🤠

 

[A_Camera]

Your point is specific to your situation and to others that match it. Someone could easily do this in the UK and I am sure wireless attacks will spread across the pond at some stage. Admittedly, if you live on Yellowstone ranch you will be safe, but in city centres you need to be mindful that you may lose your car to theft if you have wireless access. 🤠

I wouldn't buy a car without keyless access in 2023. No way. I like to keep the fobs for our cars in my pocket and opening and driving the cars without the need for fishing for the key. I don't use the key card or the phone, but keyless access is a must for me. I don't believe that car thefts are as huge of an issue as claimed, at least not for BMW built after the "sleeping key fob" was introduced.

 

[NCe40]

Your point is specific to your situation and to others that match it. Someone could easily do this in the UK and I am sure wireless attacks will spread across the pond at some stage. Admittedly, if you live on Yellowstone ranch you will be safe, but in city centres you need to be mindful that you may lose your car to theft if you have wireless access. 🤠

It's been awhile since I've been to the UK, but parking must be really tight if people are getting less than 4cm close to you on a regular basis.

 

[niam]

It's been awhile since I've been to the UK, but parking must be really tight if people are getting less than 4cm close to you on a regular basis.

That is the situation in all big cities in Europe…

 

[trivalent]

That is the situation in all big cities in Europe…

4 cm distance between humans is common in scenarios involving public parking and such?

Please provide photographic evidence of this. It sounds unbelievable, as if strangers and drivers routinely spontaneously engage in tango dancing.

 

[Matty106]

4 cm distance between humans is common in scenarios involving public parking and such?

Please provide photographic evidence of this. It sounds unbelievable.

I think the situations are very different between our continents. Shame you don't seem to believe us. I park in Heathrow airport many times a year and those carparks can be hectic.

If you are in the game of thieving then its easy pickings.

 

[generic.user]

How does your car not get dinged if people are parking that close to each other? 🤔 Also, I'm pretty sure 4cm is a theoretical limit. Try using NFC to open the car; it definitely feels like it needs to be closer than 4cm, and it isn't instant either.

Regardless, even if we concede these points, it is still far safer than carrying a keyfob with comfort access. I just wish it would recognize my profile. I've done everything, and it doesn't work; it says that the digital key is linked to my profile, etc. I've trying unlinking/relinking. I wonder if it's because I'm using my watch to unlock the door, and then the phone to start the car 🤔