IMO, movie theaters are a no-brainer LVL2 charging location.

 

Electrify America is great. They’ve put chargers where Tesla never did making EV road trips in the U.S.A. possible, which wouldn’t have been possible with a Tesla, but what do you think would be some good ideas for additional EV fast charging infrastructure to be built fast so many more Americans can convert, who can’t charge at home, or who live in a state like Minnesota with only 6 Electrify America Fast Charging Stations total?

This is my idea:
If the government forced all existing and new gas stations to install EV fast chargers or shut down, the necessary EV infrastructure would be installed. If it means ripping out half their gas pumps so be it. 🙂

The problem is that I don't know of any mechanism by which the government can force gas stations to do that. They can incentivize them with tax breaks, etc., but that's another thing entirely. If they did try to somehow force them, it'd be tied up in the courts for years. Better to use a carrot than the stick, if that's the way we want to go with things.

The real answer is for demand to be such that it's economically advantageous for gas station owners to install EV chargers. But, of course, you run into a chicken-or-egg situation. The truth of the matter, I think, is that it's going to be a slow ramp-up.

 

There should be a financial incentive to put chargers at gas stations. If you hit one third of them nationally it would make a tremendous difference to the charging infrastructure. In the northeast and out west so many gas stations have shops for snacks and stuff so you can spend your 20 minutes and be gone.

I have seen Target putting some in their parking lots, things like this are great.

 

In the last 18 months or so, 4 different gas stations were built from scratch around me: 7 Eleven, Pilot, 76 and Chevron. 0 have any kind of EV Charging.

76 had two parking spots labeled “EV charging” but not charger in sight. Those labels have since wore off and nothing was installed.

I don’t know about existing gas stations but I don’t know how anyone can justify building new ones without EV charging options.

Frankly, DC charging is extremely expensive in SoCal, prices going above $0.70 cents per kWh which would be the equivalent of $7/gallon or so making EV road trips too expensive.

 

With things the way they are going I suspect there will be more disincentives to expanding EV adoption rather than incentives. Or any government support other than perhaps helping Tesla. Trump wants to drill in ANWR. In my ruby red state there are registration surcharges for EVs - $140 additional per year. And essentially no incentives. We will have to rely on the market to make it profitable to install chargers.

 

Those surcharges are there to recoup the money the state loses on fuel tax to maintain roads, so technically you are getting an incentive on that, unless you are talking about a state tax credit incentive at time of purchase of the vehicle. I also am in a red state, luckily our charging infrastructure isn't too bad. I see lots of EVs on the roads here as well.

 

I think that a Federal mandate is unlikely anytime soon but at a state and county level, zoning and development requirements would ultimately drive up EV charging infra both DC and L2, depending on the type of development. Number of parking spots, ADA, ingress/egress, etc. are already folded into those codes so presumably, EV charging could be appended.

Obviously, if the Feds or State governments include favorable tax treatment for those investments, it would make the pill easier to swallow.

 

Electrify America is great. They’ve put chargers where Tesla never did making EV road trips in the U.S.A. possible, which wouldn’t have been possible with a Tesla, but what do you think would be some good ideas for additional EV fast charging infrastructure to be built fast so many more Americans can convert, who can’t charge at home, or who live in a state like Minnesota with only 6 Electrify America Fast Charging Stations total?

This is my idea:
If the government forced all existing and new gas stations to install EV fast chargers or shut down, the necessary EV infrastructure would be installed. If it means ripping out half their gas pumps so be it. 🙂

You must be lucky hitting new generation EA chargers. My (fortunately) limited experience has been with much older EA chargers and it was awful.
I rarely use public charging, only during road trips longer than 230 mile or so.

IMHO, the issue that I see with installing high rate charging stations is the aging power infrastructure.

Most gas stations were built based on previous power requirements that were far less than installing multiple 200-350kW chargers.

I am not a power engineer, but would assume there would be shared transformers that may need up grading to larger capacities, which pushes the ROI out for the owners of the gas stations.

It's just like owners of older homes with small panel amp capacity. They will need to spend an average of $2000-$6000 to upgrade the panel before they spend $500-$1000 for the 240V 50-60A circuit for the charger

 

IMHO, the issue that I see with installing high rate charging stations is the aging power infrastructure.

As far as Ive read, this line of argument has been very thoroughly debunked.

The stats I've seen are something along this line:
If every new car sold was an EV, the grid would need to have increased generation of an additional 0.3% year over year.
Actual grid generation capacity has increased between 1.1 and 3 percent, year over year for decades.

The Utilities can definitely handle the increased demand from EV adoption.

What is an actual problem is data centers. The three biggest electricity users in the US are now Google, Meta and Microsoft. Until recently, it used to be Ford and Walmart. Both of those users are flat or down from previous years.
Those three tech companies combined now use as much electricity as all of the homes in Michigan. Individually, either Google or Meta uses more electricity than all homes in Kentucky. The electricity demands of the tech sector are growing faster than any other cause.

The geographocally concentrated and increasing demand from data centers is what utilities are struggling to meet, not EVs which is both smaller and better distributed.

 

what do you think would be some good ideas for additional EV fast charging infrastructure to be built fast so many more Americans can convert, who can’t charge at home, or who live in a state like Minnesota with only 6 Electrify America Fast Charging Stations total?

We will have to rely on the market to make it profitable to install chargers.

We are still waiting for Ionna to "build North America’s leading charging network of 30,000+ ultra-fast charging stations." [by 2030]

I wonder if BMW (as an investor in this venture) will add Ionna contracts to those of us that have Plug & Charge...

Also, there's the NEVI program, although I don't know if it will continue to survive through the planned disbursement period.

 

Ionna has broken ground on several recharging stations.

Rechargeries

Looking for a quick bite, drink, or recharge? Browse our growing list of locations to find your nearest Rechargery.

www.ionna.com

promising

 

Electricity demand associated with U.S. cryptocurrency mining operations in the United States has grown very rapidly over the last several years. Our preliminary estimates suggest that annual electricity use from cryptocurrency mining probably represents from 0.6% to 2.3% of U.S. electricity consumption.
Tracking electricity consumption from U.S. cryptocurrency mining operations - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

Electricity demand associated with U.S. cryptocurrency mining operations in the United States has grown very rapidly over the last several years. Our preliminary estimates suggest that annual electricity use from cryptocurrency mining probably represents from 0.6% to 2.3% of U.S. electricity consumption.
Tracking electricity consumption from U.S. cryptocurrency mining operations - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

I have been in the datacenter business for over 20 years. Vacancy across all datacenter co-location providers in the US is at an all time low of 3%. Yeah AI, crypto, etc will only gobble up more.

 

Send the Gas station managers to Europe for training in basic business :
Longer charging stops, makes increased sales of food etc. compared with the old short filling stops.
Sometimes driving on longer distances, the money I saves on energy is used (and more) on fast food at the service station.

 

Free EV chargers in front of nail and hair salons!!

 

Remember in the 50's drive ins with girls on roller skates bring food to your car? Imagine that with ev connections.

On a more serious note....

Density makes a difference. I live a city of 2.7 square miles and over 37,000 people.
This is because our city is all high rises. In high rises most of the meters aren't on the ground floors.
Can you imagine the local power company having to double the number of meters in a high rise to accommodate
EV power stations at people's parking spaces?

Recently my condo asked our power company for assistance in putting in community chargers.
They said, "Its not that simple. All the poles in your area are full of other things.
We would have to install a new pole, and new transformers."
I don't know what that's going to cost us. They haven't given us a package yet, but it won't be simple or cheap for somebody.

I also remember the story of a truck stop company that wanted to create service for electric 18 wheelers.
The power company said they couldn't accommodate it because their one stop would use more power than a nearby city.

Dan

 

Remember in the 50's drive ins with girls on roller skates bring food to your car? Imagine that with ev connections.

On a more serious note....

Density makes a difference. I live a city of 2.7 square miles and over 37,000 people.
This is because our city is all high rises. In high rises most of the meters aren't on the ground floors.
Can you imagine the local power company having to double the number of meters in a high rise to accommodate
EV power stations at people's parking spaces?

Recently my condo asked our power company for assistance in putting in community chargers.
They said, "Its not that simple. All the poles in your area are full of other things.
We would have to install a new pole, and new transformers."
I don't know what that's going to cost us. They haven't given us a package yet, but it won't be simple or cheap for somebody.

I also remember the story of a truck stop company that wanted to create service for electric 18 wheelers.
The power company said they couldn't accommodate it because their one stop would use more power than a nearby city.

Dan

Yes probably best to fix the Utility companies first.
I have only been in USA (California) for a total of less than one hundred days - but almost all my power outages has happened there. There is also the only place I have seen regular office buildings with emergency diesel generators - something we only see at Hospitals in Norway.

 

Well, we won't see it, so why bother trying at all?
🤦‍♂️

 

Dan, my I ask, where do you charge?
I live in Aventura, Florida, which is essentially the north easternmost part of Miami.

How many miles/month do you drive? It varies.
I have 24000 miles on my August 2022 delivered vehicle.
Some months I'll drive to Orlando which is about 240 miles each way.
I also have friends I see weekly which can be a 70 mile round trip.

How much of a pain in the ARSE is it to charge and how much do you spend per month?
I fill up once to twice a week (20-90%) More if I take a trip.
Costs depend on level 2/level 3.
Local FPL evolution chargers have both throttled (90kw) and non-throttled (350kw) chargers at different price points.
EA has 4 slots at a nearby Walmart, when they work...
Chargepoint, Blink, and a few others have level 2 chargers in the nearby mall.
The biggest problem is sometimes I have to wait in line for the chargers.

I am working to get a charger at my condo parking space. The Florida statutes say the board cannot prohibit it, but
they sure tried. Now I am over that hurdle and working an electrician for installation.
I'm only doing it for convenience, because there is no way I'll ever recoup my investment.

Dan

 

Dan, how much is the electrician charging you for the labor and the L2 charger? Based on your driving thats approx 120 fill ups @ $50/fill up at a gas station for an ICE car. 2 fill ups a month, 24 a year = 5 years. I based that at a $6000.00 investment to have the L2 charger installed.

 

Electrify America is great. They’ve put chargers where Tesla never did making EV road trips in the U.S.A. possible, which wouldn’t have been possible with a Tesla, but what do you think would be some good ideas for additional EV fast charging infrastructure to be built fast so many more Americans can convert, who can’t charge at home, or who live in a state like Minnesota with only 6 Electrify America Fast Charging Stations total?

This is my idea:
If the government forced all existing and new gas stations to install EV fast chargers or shut down, the necessary EV infrastructure would be installed. If it means ripping out half their gas pumps so be it. 🙂

Gas stations with charging are an obvious path forward.

In fact a number of gas station chains are installing chargers in their existing and new stations: Pilot/Flying J; Circle K; Shell; BP.

They are probably getting funding from NEVI. But electric cars are not going away. Despite the current dip in sales, some brands are forging ahead with new models. (Such as Jaguar 🤣).

Even when NEVI gets cancelled, there will still a long-term profit motive to add chargers to existing gas stations, which have brand recognition, location, various amounts of spare parking, convenience stores, and presumably upgradable power supplies.

Just as blacksmith shops started repairing cars and selling gasoline, gas stations will adapt.

 

Even when NEVI gets cancelled, there will still a long-term profit motive to add chargers to existing gas stations, which have brand recognition, location, various amounts of spare parking, convenience stores, and presumably upgradable power supplies.

Just as blacksmith shops started repairing cars and selling gasoline, gas stations will adapt.

Quoting this recent article from last month:

"The challenge in expanding the network of convenient, amenity-rich charging options in the U.S. requires matching up electrical infrastructure with the right real estate. To create a space like Rove, Reid says, operators need enough power to run a large mall. That means finding an affordable site with access to the electric grid that has enough space for electrical equipment, a store, and room for cars that are charging and those that are waiting for an open space. EV charging sites need one and a half parking spaces per charger, which can be hard to find in dense, urban areas. Rove’s Santa Ana location, site of a shuttered Hometown Buffet, sits at the crossroads of major streets, and near Interstate 5, a major highway.

Gas stations simply aren’t designed to hold multiple vehicles waiting in line for 20-plus-minute charging sessions. That makes it hard to simply convert existing stations to EV charging spots. On top of that, Bennett says adding enough charging capacity to an existing station could require a new electrical substation or power line."

I am not sure if this Consumer Reports analysis (published earlier this year) was ever linked here, but it provides some useful statistics on retail adoption of EV charging stations, and some recommendations for what they can do. A few interesting points they mentioned:

"-Only one retailer, Ikea, offers EV charging at nearly 100 percent of its U.S. locations.

-Among big box retailers, including Target and Walmart, no company except Ikea currently offers EV charging at more than 10 percent of its locations.

-Discount stores like Dollar General, Dollar Tree, and Five Below have effectively made no investments in EV charging despite the critical role these companies, with their nearly 40,000 store locations, could play in improving access to rural and under-resourced communities."

 

If the government forced all existing and new gas stations to install EV fast chargers or shut down, the necessary EV infrastructure would be installed.

Your in the USA. New Administration is Drill baby drill. Even with Elon in the government, they won't be forcing anyone. Fairy tail. Sad .

In the last 18 months or so, 4 different gas stations were built from scratch around me: 7 Eleven, Pilot, 76 and Chevron. 0 have any kind of EV Charging.

Past 5 years, I've been amazed on how many new gas stations have gone in Florida. Many with more than 16 pumps with no EV. In South Florida a lot of 7 Eleven's have an 2 EV chargers.

The mini nuclear power plants are the answer to data center needs.

New administration in the USA is pro-Nuclear. Bad idea. In the USA, our administration can change every 4 years. Americans just don't have the mentality to do Nuclear for anything but military.

A hailstorm obliterates more than a 200mW+ new solar farm, like what recently happened in Texas

Why is it always Texas with problems with green energy. They had wind farms freeze a few years ago. A lot of windfarms are in cold climates, but Texas gets a few cold days and bam something is always wrong with their green energy. Maybe they need better panels. Hail protection for the 90% of likely hail can easily be solved.

But I agree with building more nuclear plants, even if we have to go to France to learn how to do it.

Nuclear is great for France. A very socialistic society. I think it is a huge mistake for USA. We've not shown we can do it without meltdowns. We lack basic safety and quarterly profits over everything causes cost cutting. Upcoming administration is pro-nuclear but anti-regulation = disaster waiting to happen. Better regulations for more energy efficient buildings should be our first goal. Then Solar and Wind. We still have coal plants. Lets get rid of those first.

 

Nuclear is great for France. A very socialistic society. I think it is a huge mistake for USA. We've not shown we can do it without meltdowns. We lack basic safety and quarterly profits over everything causes cost cutting. Upcoming administration is pro-nuclear but anti-regulation = disaster waiting to happen. Better regulations for more energy efficient buildings should be our first goal. Then Solar and Wind. We still have coal plants. Lets get rid of those first.

I'm sorry, what? How many actual meltdowns, in the US, have you counted in the past 50 years?
Hint: Three Mile Island was 45 and a half years ago.

 

Actually visited now:
They have 6 fuel pumps, 6 400kw chargers, and one old 50kw CCs and Chademo

 

At my local CrcleK : they had nine pumps - now they have three pumps and six chargers.

Actually visited now:
They have 6 fuel pumps, 6 400kw chargers, and one old 50kw CCs and Chademo

We here in the U.S. can only dream of being in the same situation as you in Norway. It seems like your country was one of the earliest movers on EV's, and even as of 2019 (according to this article), gas stations like the one you pictured were already taking actions to add EV charging capabilities. Maybe we could learn some lessons from you all, but it doesn't seem likely.

 

You will get there in 5 or 10 years ?

 

@rollermonkey. Point taken. 12,538 Utility Scale Power plants in the USA. 54 of which are Nuclear. Nuclear 0.4% of Power plants but produce 20% of electricity. When things go wrong, they go very wrong. Yes only 3 major incidents in the world but 99 other recorded less severe incidents. When they go wrong, land and even cities in the case of Chernobyl have to be evacuated. The cost can be high. Then what do you do with radioactive waste? I saw in a documentary that we only use the fuel once but can use the fuel twice and make it less radioactive but it costs more than new material.

I think we should focus on maximizing solar, wind, and other less risky sources first. Nuclear has a place. I've seen destruction to the environment due to oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico and Monsanto and other industrial plants polluting waterways. Once it is destroyed, it rarely is ever the same again. There are already many nuclear power plants near me, I don’t want more.

 

Agreed solar and wind are the best current routes.

 

There are many reasons why Nuclear energy is cleaner than most others:

• low greenhouse gas emissions, beats all fossil fuel energy sources
• no air pollution, beats coal every day of the week
• reliable and stable regardless weather patterns, beats solar and wind every day of the year. Intermittent energy sources like wind and solar are problematic because of having to address large scale energy storage issues
• production: cleaner in obtaining nuclear material vs manufacturing wind turbines or solar panels
• environmental impact? this is in question, however given footprint, arguably better than hydroelectric plants, solar farms and wind turbine farms.

Waste management and accidents are still concerns with nuclear, but are rare, and are arguably overshadowed by all the negatives that come with other energy sources.

There are some statistics on energy.gov that paints a more accurate picture: https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/3-reasons-why-nuclear-clean-and-sustainable

 

Radioactivity still found in Norwegian nature - 36 years after the Chernobyl disaster

Even though it has been 36 years since the Chernobyl disaster, scientists are still finding radioactive contamination in wild plants in Norway.

www.sciencenorway.no

Glaciers melting because they are covered with waste from Chernobyl, resulting in faster melting, radioactive fish, Global higher sea level, and global warming. Norway is 2000 km from Chernobyl.
It is estimated that many thousands Norwegians have/will die due to cancer after Chernobyl.

Chernobyl was an old Russian power station - built and maintained to lower security standards.

 

Electrify America is great. They’ve put chargers where Tesla never did making EV road trips in the U.S.A. possible, which wouldn’t have been possible with a Tesla, but what do you think would be some good ideas for additional EV fast charging infrastructure to be built fast so many more Americans can convert, who can’t charge at home, or who live in a state like Minnesota with only 6 Electrify America Fast Charging Stations total?

This is my idea:
If the government forced all existing and new gas stations to install EV fast chargers or shut down, the necessary EV infrastructure would be installed. If it means ripping out half their gas pumps so be it. 🙂

It is too late to get the government to mandate more charging stations. We have what can be funded from the Infrastructure act. Trump will do everything he can to repeal the Infrastructure act, but Congress would have to act for it to be legal. No new electric car initiatives will be forthcoming for at least 4 more years. I'm not meaning for this to be political, just realistic.

 

I thought the USA was the country of entrepreneurs! What is all this talk about governments!

 

That’s great that the gas stations are installing so many EV chargers in Norway like i4m50Norway pointed out.
I feel that since the vast majority of gas stations in the U.S. do not see the benefit of adding EV fast charging infrastructure, it needs to be forced on them. Kind of like how wearing a seatbelt is the law.
I recently was looking at the Electrify America website and looked at the current chargers in Minnesota. When I visited relatives in June, I was surprised by how few EVs I saw. Then I looked at the Electrify America app and figured out why. They only had a total of 5 Electrify America fast charging stations for the whole state.
Fast forward 6 months and Electrify America has really been doing a kickass job in Minnesota. They now have 10 Electrify America fast charging stations!

 

In my experience Electify America charging stations are about as reliable as McDonald's Ice cream machines. What matters is not whether they exist, but whether they work.

Dan

 

We were in Germany and Austria on vacation this summer. I was trying to fill up our turbo diesel Audi A4 Avant Wagon at a gas station in Bavaria and over half of their pumps were down due to electronics/computer issues. The German technician trying to fix it was quite frustrated. I’ve never been at an Electrify America charging station that had over half of the chargers down… So in Bavaria I just got an Almdudler and some caffeine and drove on to a different Tankstelle where I filled up with diesel.
See, if there was more EV charging infrastructure, if a charging station at a gas station was down, you’d just go to the one across the street etc. No big deal.

 

Well, if you are going to subject yourself to driving turbo-diesels, I have no sympathy. This is an i4 forum!

 

I was traveling thru Germany on Sept 12th this year.
The big news on radio was that the Debit/Kredit card network was down.
I did not have any Euro's - so no food, fuel etc.
Only thing that worked was charging my i4 with the BMW Charging card.

 

However, if we let the rare but severe accidents of any technology halt our progress, we would likely still be in caves now

Nuclear accidents are more severe than others. I don't know anything else that can cause clear damage for hundreds or thousands of years. Land is precious and we shouldn't waste it. Air polution causes cancer, but so does radioactive pollution that you have to find a place to store. I'd be for more Nuclear under ideal regulation that forces safety and burn fuel till it is less radioactive, but we don't have that in the USA. I'm currently in the “not in my backyard” camp. We just have so much more we can do with other technologies like solar and wind first.

Our first goal on clean energy should be reducing our energy usage. After living in a concrete house then moving to a wood framed house, I'm beyond amazed on how much more energy the house uses. We should first focus on regulation to force people to make our houses more energy efficient. Better insulation, heat pump hot water heaters (hot climates), geothermal heat pumps, and more efficient appliances can make a big difference.

Should a handful of nuclear power accidents stop us from pursuing nuclear energy,

No and it hasn't. We have a lot of nuclear equipment in the military. It has a clear advantage for some applications. There is no perfect solution to energy creation and we need Nuclear to some degree since it isn't always sonny or windy. Solar creates a lot of pollution making solar panels. But of all the technologies, it has the least major issues. Plus I'd love it if I had solar covered parking that could charge my car while I was at work.

 

Nuclear accidents are more severe than others. I don't know anything else that can cause clear damage for hundreds or thousands of years. Land is precious and we shouldn't waste it. Air polution causes cancer, but so does radioactive pollution that you have to find a place to store. I'd be for more Nuclear under ideal regulation that forces safety and burn fuel till it is less radioactive, but we don't have that in the USA. I'm currently in the “not in my backyard” camp. We just have so much more we can do with other technologies like solar and wind first.

Our first goal on clean energy should be reducing our energy usage. After living in a concrete house then moving to a wood framed house, I'm beyond amazed on how much more energy the house uses. We should first focus on regulation to force people to make our houses more energy efficient. Better insulation, heat pump hot water heaters (hot climates), geothermal heat pumps, and more efficient appliances can make a big difference.

No and it hasn't. We have a lot of nuclear equipment in the military. It has a clear advantage for some applications. There is no perfect solution to energy creation and we need Nuclear to some degree since it isn't always sonny or windy. Solar creates a lot of pollution making solar panels. But of all the technologies, it has the least major issues. Plus I'd love it if I had solar covered parking that could charge my car while I was at work.

Convince your employer that it makes sense.